Sex, Marriage and the Modern Japanese (and Korean) Woman
As promised, here is the second of the links I planned to discuss, from my favourite Japanese blog, PingMag. In its own words, that post is about that fact that:
While Japan has an enormous sex-related industry, married couples don’t seem to do it that often (According to a Durex Survey, Japan ranks last internationally in terms of sexual activity.) And this would be the case in many modern societies as well. So for the last two years, author Sumie Kawakami gathered interviews of various Japanese women to depict this one aspect of society: Her latest book, Goodbye Madame Butterfly: Sex, Marriage and the Modern Japanese Woman by the superb Chin Music Press portrays eleven sex lives in painstaking detail. Today PingMag talks to Sumie about the heart of relationships. (Photo by 6uÿ)
Personally, I can’t think of too many ”modern societies” with sexless married couples and huge sex industries outside of Northeast Asia myself. On top of that, this is yet another case where all the “Japan”s could be replaced with “Korea”s in the original link and be equally valid, which is why I devote so much attention to the subject here, via some highlights from the interview:
Let’s get to the point: Why do you think Japanese married couples aren’t having much sex?
I’d like to refer you to statistics: Pharmaceutical company Bayer AG conducted an online survey in 2006, which found that 38.8 percent of couples questioned didn’t have sex in the past year. Sexlessness had little to do with age – 47 percent of those in their 30s, 46 percent of those in their 40s and 50 percent of those in their 50s said they were sexless.
Please explain.
In my interviews of women, I’ve talked to many who said that sex with their husbands was too much work. For one thing, their husbands came home very late from work but had to get up early the next morning, so sex was the last thing on their minds. I didn’t mention this in the book, but in the process of reporting for this book, I’ve also talked to men who claimed they were sexless: One guy was in his early 20s. He told me that he often comes home from work early in the morning and by the time he gets ready to go to bed, his wife wakes up to go to work. Sex is out of the question here. They’re not having affairs either. He said, “I could go home earlier if I wanted to, but going out for drinks after work is part of my job. I feel bad for my wife, but for now, work is my priority – not being at home.” Weekends are so busy with shopping and other events that sex never enters the picture. Making time just for sex in a very busy schedule feels awkward. It’s not that he lacks drive – it’s just easier taking care of business on his own when his wife’s not around.
While that example is an extreme case, this couple has been married for only a few years. If the relationship continues in that way, what awaits them in ten or twenty years? Long working hours and the fact that men are tied to evening social obligations long after they’ve left the company are impediments to a healthy sex life. They’re all tired, men included. These days, women continue to work after they’ve had babies. On weekdays, sex is the furthest thing from their minds as they focus on work and raising their children. I think these are common issues for most families.
( “Tokyo Subway” by sqis)
I don’t know enough about Japanese people or that survey to comment on either, but I do know that similar statistics would be notoriously unreliable for Koreans: to put it mildly, most lack the matter-of-factness that I hear that Japanese people have on the subject of sex, nor have the relative openness about it that most Westerners possess (at least amongst friends), to the extent that many 30 year-old Koreans may not even know if their best friend is a virgin or not (lest that sound like an exaggeration, it’s my Korean wife and both female and male friends that have told me this). Moreover, as long-time readers of the blog will know, it isn’t because Koreans are inexperienced sexually either: rather, it’s because to many Koreans…nay, to Korean society as a whole…sex is, well, the elephant in the room. That Korea has one of the biggest sex industries in the world, that love hotels are ubiquitous, and that some Koreans may have sexual urges before marriage…as far as I can tell, most Koreans would prefer to remain in blissful, feigned ignorance of them, and media attention on them must be confined to obscure cable channels in the early hours of the morning.
With that qualification out of the way, I personally think that figures for Koreans would be broadly similar, and I say this based on the numbers of Koreans I know that do not have sex for a long time, if ever, after their first child is born. Of course, I’m very familiar with the difficulties all couples have in returning to a normal sex-life after having a baby, and, seeing as the topic came up, I may as well pull the 8th edition of Our Sexuality (2001) by Karla Baur and Robert Crooks out of my bookcase to remind myself as I type this, for on…let’s see…pp. 361-2 it lists those difficulties and gives advice about how to overcome them (What? You don’t have 3kg, thick academic tomes on human sexuality within ready reach in your own bookcase? You’ve never given one as a birthday present to your spouse or partner??).
And in a nutshell, despite all the physiological, psychological, and practical difficulties the book mentions, the underlying message is that the vast majority of couples want to continue having sex after having children, and almost all do sooner or later, usually within 2-3 months. But in Korea, they just seem to give up. Indeed, since becoming a full-time housewife over a year ago, my wife has come to know at least 6 other housewives in our apartment complex, and all (eventually) reported that they may have had sex with their husbands once, twice, or even not at all in the year since their first baby was born, sometimes in two years. No, not because of difficulties, but because just not trying at all, and they all think that that’s perfectly normal and natural for young parents.
It would be strange to for couples with happy and healthy sex-lives before pregnancy to somehow lose all libido for years afterwards (beyond when the woman is breastfeeding that is, when a loss of libido is natural), so it doesn’t seem unreasonable to assume that 40% or so of Korean married couples also rarely, if ever, have sex. What gives?
( Source: unknown )
So, an obstacle seems to be a busy work life?
Also, lack of communication between the spouses is part of the problem. The main focal point in the lives of men becomes the workplace and work itself, while for women, it’s the home and children. They end up sharing so little. In North America, for instance, men are active in the children’s schools or within the local community. That experience likely leads to stronger ties within the family and between the spouses. In Japan, however, many fathers can barely attend the child’s sports day event once a year. The husband works downtown and his center of activity is rooted in that area. The wife’s radius of activity is confined to a small area, perhaps a few kilometers, around the school. No wonder husbands and wives begin to drift apart.
If anything, this would apply even more to Koreans than to Japanese people. Sure, like Korea, I think Japan schools may also usually be single sex (can any Japan-based readers confirm?), and this makes children and teenagers much more likely to seek physical affection from the same sex, and the lack of experience with each other before university means that young Koreans have developed very elaborate blind dating systems to meet the opposite sex without having to go up and actually talk to each other first. But what Japan lacks is Korea’s 22-26 month compulsory military service for men afterward, not only compounding these tendencies learned from school, including how to survive on little sleep, but in the process turning them into the sexist ajosshis (아저씨) that we all love to hate. Think I’m exaggerating? To put it mildly, no countries with compulsory military service are exactly well known for the high status of women in society, and academic journals on Korea are full of articles about the corporatist training, militaristic notions of Korean citizenship, and and sense of post-service privilege that Korean men learn during their service. I’m interested, naturally, so I can point readers in the direction of and discuss some of those articles in another post if anyone asks. In the meantime, you could also simply just ask Korean mothers and girlfriends of young Korean men, and you’ll invariably find that they’ll be very concerned about how they’ll turn out when return home after their service.
After this background, the salaryman lifestyle of long hours, followed by heavy drinking sessions with colleagues and visits to prostitutes sounds somewhat natural. And as I’ve repeatedly mentioned on the blog already, the majority of Korean women still spend many years off work after childbirth, if they return to work at all, and until 1997 Korea had far more salarymen then Japan ever did, and the accompanying company-first work ethos remains very much the Korean ideal. These would exaggerate these seperate spheres of Korean married life all the more (Photo by E.C.A. Studio).
Apart from the relationship issues mentioned by Kawakami, another consequence in Korea is ubiquitous urology clinics for men, which effectively serve more as STD and impotence clinics. I assume Japan has similarly high numbers of them, although admittedly the decentralized structure of the Korean medical industry also plays a role in Korea, and I don’t how much that applies to Japan too. Again, I’d be grateful if any readers could let me know.
On that note, there are many more, related questions to follow in the interview, but I can’t really add to Kawakami’s already succinct answers, so I’ll end my post here. Again, and especially if you’ve read this far, then I recommend reading the full interview.
(James: In case anyone’s confused, in the original version of this post I also discussed a post of mine being copied and pasted in full by Asian Offbeat and the ethics of doing so, but as it seemed out of place then I deleted that section)
I’ve heard some horror stories from Koreans regarding this. Months, years. It’s a hard thing to understand. I haven’t had a kid yet, so I have no idea what the sex life of a post-kid couple is.
Good piece though James. I like the blogger ethics too. I’m with you regarding Asian off beat…I hate to say this out loud, but I have no problem taking stuff from a site like that and not crediting it. As you say, it’s a glorified splog.
Thanks. I have to admit though, its clever design and attribution of articles made it take a while for me to feel any sense of outrage about it.
Good entry!
Though, I do have one thing to say about your claim that “to put it mildly, no countries with compulsory military service are exactly well known for the high status of women in society”. At the very least, Switzerland, which has not only an initial 9 month period of training but also a 1 month “refresher” every year until age 35, has actually a very liberal view of feminism, etc.
Driftingfocus, thanks, and yes, you’re quite right to call me out with an example like that. If I could write the post again I wouldn’t have been so overzealous and generalizing in getting my point across, and instead would have emphasized what I still think is a definite general tendency for countries with military conscription to be somewhat behind in women’s political and economic empowerment – there’s always exceptions as you pointed out, and of course there’s other factors involved and on top of that the experience of military service can vary significantly between countries (I think even Sweden has a minimalist conscription system also!).
Having said that, the links between women’s low status and military conscription are very clear and explicit in South Korea at the very least, and beginning to think about those while I wrote this post inspired me to write this series on that specific topic three months later, where I go into those points above in much greater detail. Please check it out if you’re interested.
Oh, believe me, I understand your position. I most definitely have a tendency to overgeneralize when talking about Korea/Koreans (there are a few examples in this post here). I think it’s only natural for those of us living here. I also, frankly, am slightly defensive of Switzerland (slightly in the way that Koreans are of Korea), because it’s my favourite country, I’ve spent a lot of time there, and I feel it is often made fun of/misunderstood/forgotten about.
But yes, there is a definite tendency in more militaristic countries to also have a more conservative view of women and women’s rights. And in Korea, it is certainly very, very clear.
I very much enjoy your blog, by the way, and read it regularly. I have a Korea-specific blog, but I have been focusing more recently on an all-inclusive blog, that is separated out by categories that used to be separate blogs. My Korea posts can be found here: http://www.driftingfocus.com/blogs/?cat=24
Thanks, and I can relate to much of what you wrote in that post you wrote in turn.
To be honest, I’m more curious about your thoughts on Switzerland though(!), as I’ve read a lot about its political system, and am aware of its reputation as a whole (in the UK at least) as being pleasant but rather dull (sorry), but I’m afraid that that’s about the limits of my knowledge.
What was your attraction to it in the first place? Would you say that, like Korea, people often end up there by accident (it was just a fluke that I came here rather than Japan or Taiwan), but end up surprised at how much they like it? I just have a hunch that they might be similar in that respect, them both being small, usually ignored and often misunderstood countries and all.
Anyway, sorry, I’m very tired and babbling a little. It’s just that you’ve made me suddenly realize that I know a lot about Europe but very little about Switzerland…probably the least of all European countries in fact. At the very least then, I’m now motivated to look at the Wikipedia entry on it while I eat my dinner! :)
Its political system is very interesting to me for two reasons: 1. the current constitution is based heavily off the Massachusetts state constitution, my home state’s and 2. it is the oldest consistently-run country in continental Europe. They must be doing *something* right!
I visited Switzerland for the first time when I was 14, and I have been going back ever since. I tend to be a quiet person prone to a bit of hermit-ism, and I find that the Swiss are a bit prone to both of those as well. I can be very chatty with people I know, but I despise the way that Americans tend to automatically assume that random people will be interested in random chatter. The Swiss tend to have a pretty cold exterior, but when you get past it (which you can tell you have when they tell you their first name – they usually go by last names except with friends) they are very warm and friendly, I have found. I spend a lot of my “Swiss time” in a little village of 133 people up on a mountainside, and when I was last there, for 2 months, I finally about halfway through, had a breakthrough and the people I had sat at the bar with for most of the nights of the previous 3 weeks finally suddenly seemed far friendlier, and started offering to help me find a job in-country, etc. Their friendship, while difficult to obtain, is very deep and genuine, I have found. It is quite a contrast to the typical American who is quick to make “friends”, but those friendships are usually rather shallow. It takes effort to befriend a Swiss, but the rewards are usually great. It’s also, you know, a gorgeous country.
Okay, enough pontificating on that point…
I would say that yes, most people end up there by accident. Switzerland, despite being the origin of “group tourism” (seriously – look up the history of Interlaken), is usually a country that people go through to get to another “bigger” country, like Italy or Germany or France. If they stop, it’s usually only for a day or two, so they can say they’ve seen the Alps. My mother spent time in Switzerland after college (along with Germany and Holland, for a total of 6 years), and so my parents took me when I was young. Something about the quiet calmness of the country struck me, and I’ve preferred it to the rest of Europe ever since. Most of the people who like Switzerland either went there by chance and liked it, or were sent there for a job, and discovered that they liked it. It’s not a country that folks usually *choose* to go to. However, if I got offered a job there, I’d move in a heartbeat. My boyfriend is French and I have joked with him that I should marry him, get an EU passport, and move to Switzerland. Haha.
I think that Switzerland is also overlooked because, like Korea, it’s pretty isolationist. The Swiss…don’t really like outsiders (like Korea, again), or have much interest in goings-on outside their borders. I have joked that with the Swiss army (which, by the way, is actually phenomenally well-equipped and trained, according to my military friends), Switzerland is like a big porcupine – if you’re nice, you can pet it gently and it won’t hurt you; but if you piss it off, the spikes go up, and you can’t even get a finger past it. Switzerland doesn’t want to be bothered, and so they remain neutral, but I pity the country that ever tries to invade them.
It’s also very rural, outside places like Zürich, Bäsel, and Geneva. Even the “medium sized” towns like Interlaken and Ticino are small enough that you can start at one side and walk to the other within an hour or so, and they’re ringed with farms. The villages are still mostly rural, and farming is still a major industry. It’s definitely a wealthy country though, don’t make the mistake of assuming that farmers = poor. I have plenty of photos of BMWs sitting next to tractors in driveways. The banking and science industries are major supports to the country, and in a way, it is those successes which allow the people who still want a simpler country life to live it without sacrificing much. They also pay their service-people very well – starting salary for a teacher in Switzerland is around $60,000USD, 2-3 times what it is in the US. They have their priorities straight, and it shows.
Plus, hey, I love a country where folks have a legitimate complaint when a train is more than a minute or two late. Like clockwork, the Swiss.
You said that you know about its reputation in the UK – is that where you’re from?
Driftingfocus, just a quick note to say thanks very much for that, but my reply will have to wait until tomorrow sorry. The comments just don’t seem to be stopping this weekend, and I’ve still got quite a backlog to catch up on!
Sure thing! Take your time. I didn’t intend it to be so long, but the comment box was small, and I didn’t realize how long and rambly it had gotten!
I am, though, curious to see your response.
Hi, very sorry I took so long: I’ve been pretty sleep-deprived because of my two daughters this week, and am honestly cringing at some of the replies I wrote in other posts!
Seeing as I decided a couple of hours ago at work to forgo my usual second coffee for the sake of going to sleep this evening, I’ll just stick to the *cough* parts of your comment that I’ve highlighted on a printout of it that I’ve had on my desk at work for two days…no, really…and quickly expand upon the notes that I wrote next to them, rather than writing a “normal” reply. Apologies in advance if that sounds a little impersonal, but otherwise at my current level of sleep-deprivation then my reply would become very rambly very quickly sorry.
1. You’re very harsh towards your fellow Americans! I can relate though, as although one should avoid generalizations it is still palpably true that I personally tend to have few problems getting along well with people from England for instance, where I lived as a child (sort of), but don’t usually immediately connect so well with people from New Zealand where I lived as a teenager and then young adult (sort of also, and I lived in Australia a little also…it’s complicated), even though I’d much prefer to live in the latter and indeed my wife and I plan to move there for the sake of our kids. I find it very curious how where I spent most of my childhood ultimately seemed to have more of an impact on me, even though I’d be quite at a loss for a while if I ever had to move to the UK. But anyway, despite all the above I have very good close friends from both countries, and from America too!
2. A small parallel with people only going to Switzerland en route to a bigger country that came to mind, although again perhaps only of interest to me personally sorry, is that most visitors to my home county of Northumberland in Northern England, actually only see it very briefly, en route from London to Scotland. Having said that, I’m surprised at the relative lack of interest in Switzerland that you describe, as I distinctly remember learning about (and eagerly drawing) the farming systems in the steep valleys changing between the seasons and the houses specially designed to handle the snow and so forth in my elementary and middle geography classes in England, and I there were very few kids in those classes that were not as completely intrigued as I was. But perhaps by the time said kids are old enough to actually go there, in their gap year(s) or something as they’re known in England, Switzerland’s reputation as having a boring nightlife puts them off?
3. I like the porcupine analogy, and it brings to mind Michael Breen’s one of Korea having to roll itself into a ball and absorb and be thrown around by the punches and kicks of other great powers fighting over it in order to survive, but I do know that in the case of Korea the number of invasions it has undergone, while substantial, were consistently and deliberately inflated by Korea’s military dictatorships for the sake of inculcating a sense of weakness and victimhood, thereby legitimating the necessity of their own rule and foreign countries’ (rather than that of Koreans themselves) culpability in Korea’s problems. If you’re interested, you can read all about it in an old post of mine here, and I just mention it because it would be interesting to see to what extent similar potentially exaggerated and/or manipulated notions exist in the Swiss national psyche.
But although I know next to nothing about Swiss history, I’d hazard a guess that it was viewed as too mountainous and resource-poor to be invaded and taken-over by other European powers most of the time? In which case the parallels to Korea would be quite minimal really, and those to the pre-1871 German states as the “battlefield of Europe” may be more apt. But don’t hold me to it, as I’m definitely going to bed now!
(9:48am: Erk! Maybe I should have restrained myself until the morning. Sorry for the babble…)
[...] Sex, Marriage and the Modern Japanese (and Korean) Woman [...]
I recently read that Japanese men end up viewing their new wife as more of a mother/sister thus having sex with them feels incestuous because the girlfriend has now become one of the closest females to the Japanese man.
Any thoughts?
Great read by the way. I have been aware of the fact that Japanese mean work too much. I remember reading an article that suggested the man use his Wifes name instead of hey you in regards to avoiding a divorce.
How crazy is that! I have been with the same man for seven years and although we have not married out relationship is very intimate. I want my husband to be my best friend but to also sometimes be my masculine hunk of a man.
:)
Cassandra,
thanks for the compliments, but I can’t image that the incest angle is anything more than hyperbole for the sake of attracting readers’ interest.
I like your post a lot. I think it’s very informative and it helps the time in the shop go by fast.
Just wanted to say that ;)
Now to the point, I wanted to ask one question. I had a sergeant that was married to a Japanese woman at my last duty station and he told us that she had no sex drive once they had a kid. Is this just an isolated thing or is Cassandra right about Japanese people in that the woman becomes “mother and the man becomes “father”? He didn’t work a lot like the Japanese; he had plenty of time with her.
Are Koreans really the same and if they are then I need to know. It worries me because I am thinking of marring my girlfriend some day and I really want t still have sex after we are married or have a kid.
Okay, apologies once again for not responding to your other comment earlier Morbas, and I’ll do my best to help you with this one.
Having had another kid, read much more about the subject, and spoken to more “international couples” as they’re known here (or at least the men in them!) since I wrote this post a year ago, then I can say that you have nothing to worry about really, for no matter how cliched it sounds, it really depends on the person.
Having said that, there is definitely a tendency here towards sexless marriages that exists above and beyond the natural (but temporary) physiological loss of a sex drive after having a baby, and later due to having much(!) less energy as one raises them, and this concern is something to bear in mind and which most definitely should be discussed with your partner before marrying her. But by definition most Korean women in serious relationships with foreigners don’t wish for a typical Korean married relationship, and as a friend married to a Korean woman who saw an English-speaking marriage counselor last year told me for instance, the counselor said that many foreign men do come to him with that complaint, but just as many do in fact have “normal” (ie happy and regular) sex lives with their Korean wives (or rather did have, before their marriages began having problems for other reasons).
So once again, you don’t have anything to worry about, but especially if this is the only stumbling block for proposing to your partner(?) then you absolutely do need to raise this with her somehow. How exactly though, you’ll have to figure out for yourself sorry!
Just one concern i had and thanks again for the help….apology accepted ;)
Oh yeah… was the answer to my last question here(http://thegrandnarrative.wordpress.com/2009/03/12/domestic-violence-in-korea/) in the post above? If it was i apologize because i completly missed it haha. Maybe its just the long weekend or something, i still cant really think straight at the moment.
I guess I didn’t sorry, but there’s not much to say to your question in that other post really. other than that these days only a very very small minority of Koreans would disapprove of dating or marrying a foreigner, although there’d be a lot more opposition if that foreigner wasn’t Caucasian. So as for why your girlfriend likes you, then only you can answer that, but your being a foreigner probably isn’t the big deal that you thought it was.
Sweet, thanks.
No problem!
I recently heard that many Koreans also sleep in the same room/bed with their child until it is a few years old – I wonder if that contributes to the lack of sex. Though I also heard that parents figure children don’t understand sex and thus don’t feel as reserved having sex around them as Western parents would (but frankly I find that hard to believe).
It’s true that those sleeping arrangements are prevalent in much of East Asia, but – sorry if this is too much information – I can personally attest to it being no real problem. Remember that most Koreans use bed mats rather than beds, which are very easy to move between rooms or suddenly set up in one (if, indeed, you need one!). Although that does pretty much rule it out should you both wake up in the middle of the night and feel so inclined (which is not often, considering how tired parents of young children invariably are), it just means that you do it in a separate room, either during the day or at night while they’re asleep. It’s really no big deal.
I can’t vouch for Korean couples as a whole feeling reserved or not in front of young babies and children though…it’s not exactly polite dinner party conversation.
I’m really glad to see someone blogging on this particular issue. Since marrying a Korean guy 2 years ago, have been hit in the face with some “cultural differences” that have been extremely challenging (to say the least!)
My husband moved to the U.S. when he was 15, and when we first dated 8 years ago, I found some differences ‘exotic’ or ‘interesting’. However, once we became husband & wife I came across alot of issues that I had no inkling of whatsoever before we were married.
I occasionally find blogspots that are encouraging because they observe or comment on things that I’m having trouble making headway in….i will be commenting more on this later, and fyi, i don’t mind sharing personal experiences, because i think it helps someone else reading to better understand why someone’s perspective is the way it is. i don’t think people need to apologize every time they share something, it just unnecessarily slows down the reading, and the acquisition of any helpful information ;)
I don’t really have to much to add to that sorry, but still, thanks for writing, and I look forward to hearing about those things you’re having trouble making headway in. Probably many other readers who are also “international couples/국제거플” (as they’re known here) will be able to relate.
I have been married to a Korean woman for 7 years, and since the birth of our first child she has all but turned off the sexual desire and I fear it will ruin our family. Our second child was miracle baby, in that not only did she survive a very-early-term appendectomy in Korea, but was conceived on the first and only try. Since then we have had sex only occasionally (every few months)after my abject begging. I’m really ashamed at what I go through to get her to have sex with me. She prefers to sleep in the other room with the children and belittles me when I suggest that we could work on having a better sex life. She thinks I am obsessed with sex. My sex drive is, to be honest, slightly below average, I would say–once a week would suffice, and any more than that would be wonderful. All I want is a bit of connection to keep our relationship strong . I have tried very hard to pick up the slack in our life so that she has the energy for sex, but it never seems to be enough, I think if you asked her, she would say our marriage is fine, if I would only stop bugging her about sex.
I really wonder what Korean men do. Prostitutes/affairs are not an option for me. I love my wife a lot, but living in Korea I feel very alone in dealing with this problem.
Guys,
I had lived with some and was married to two a Korean women and all of them were angels before we got married, but after the ring went on, the gloves came
off and she wore the pants in the family. That sweet, charming
little petite girl I fell in love with and married, turned into a bossy, dominating mean little bitch. For eleven years she treated me like a dog and I was stupid enough to take it, because I was in love and she wasn’t. Her mother told her to treat her husband like a dog, but be nice to other men. A husband is property, her property, to do with as she pleases and don’t forget to control the money, too. If you decide to marry a Korean woman, her mother will control your marriage, not your wife.
They have been brainwashed to obey the mother, as all cost. Do I hate Korean women, no. I think they are the most beautiful women in the world and I would marry another one, if I thought she was right for me. But the caste system they have set up, between
mother and daughter, stinks and the husband comes out on the short end of the stick. It sucks and beauty won’t help the pain of marrying a Korean.
The end came when I found out she had turned into the town
whore and was having sex with every guy, but me.
Ya, go ahead stupid and marry a Korean woman, if you want
to be treated like dog shit and your nut’s cut off.
Ray, you might be telling the truth about your own marriage, but you didn’t have to slag off every Korean woman in the process.
Banned.
Take a listen to yourself…
“…all of them were angels before we got married, but after the ring went on, the gloves came off and she wore the pants in the family.That sweet, charming
little petite girl I fell in love with and married, turned into a bossy, dominating mean little bitch.”
And then…
“Ya, go ahead stupid and marry a Korean woman, if you want to be treated like dog shit and your nut’s cut off.”
“Do I hate Korean women, no. I think they are the most beautiful women in the world and I would marry another one…”
From what you’re saying your definitely LOVES being treated as dog and would want another session in your next marriage.
Enjoy the leash moron!
I know it’s late to make this comment, but…Switzerland made some radical changes in the status of women very quickly–it might be pretty open to feminism now in some cantons, but that was only after allowing women to vote in 1971 (very late) with final universal female sufferage in 1990 (YES, 1990). Switzerland is a fine country and I loved my time there but it is certainly not Sweden when it comes to gender equality–there may be some connection between certain forms of male privilege and universal male conscription after all.
Also on another subject, it is not clear that there is a physiological reason not to have sex after about a month to six weeks after a child is born–certainly in the US many couples have sex until very close to a child’s birth and fairly soon afterwards. The reasons for the death of sex after marriage are much more likely to be sociocultural than simply personal/individual if they are reported on such a wide scale. As one French philospher said, how could I have sex with the mother of my children? Maybe there is something similar going on for both parties….
Thanks for that info about Switzerland: that was quite an eye-opener!
As for sex after marriage, in my 2002 copy of this book, sexologists Robert Crooks and Karla Baur confirm that most (US) couples “resume intercourse after six to eight weeks following birth,” but while women might technically be capable of it by then that doesn’t mean that there aren’t considerable and psychological and hell, practical difficulties in doing so. Probably the two greatest are:
1) Fatigue, especially if it’s a second child. I don’t want to go into too many personal details, but I wouldn’t be exaggerating when I say that I haven’t had an uninterrupted 8 hours of sleep since the birth of my second child in August (the other is nearly 3 now). I do still have a sex drive of course – I’m a guy – but I have little energy for exercising at all (and I used to jog 1 hour 30 mins every day), I’ve gained a lot of weight, my skin is always terrible, and I’m a lot more argumentative and snappy at my wife…I’m not exactly a catch at the moment!
2) You recall that male lions, if they come across a lioness already with cubs, will kill them in order to make her fertile for their offspring again? Similarly, if a woman is breastfeeding, then “Mother Nature [uses] her entire arsenal of tricks, from hormones to humility, to keep [her] focused on [her] baby and not on getting pregnant again” and her sex drive is correspondingly diminished, with problems of vaginal dryness and painful intercourse also. And – as new fathers the world over can confirm – a tired, probably fatter mother, with breasts literally constantly leaking through her clothes, is not the most attractive of partners!
I think then, physiological problems can’t be dismissed so readily. But certainly, men have some “blame” in not reestablishing a healthy sex life with wives after childbirth. And just like the book says, those couples with healthy ones before pregnancy are most likely to get back on track….eventually…and that all too many Korean and Japanese couples don’t feel any need to do so whatsover – in stark contrast to Western couples – does indeed point to sociocultural factors more than anything else.
James…
I read your post only today… it’s a fascinating post, especially about the transformation of life (sex and power relationships) after marriage.
I’d like to comment and add about your “to put it mildly, no countries with compulsory military service are exactly well known for the high status of women in society”… well, not exactly. First, which countries did you have in mind? Second, I can tell you from personal experience that in Israel woman reached high status in all areas of life. I can give you the details, if you’re interested. So saying, “no countries with compulsory military service…” etc. is inaccurate.
But, this is a minor correction. I like your postings…
Yossi–Thanks. Sorry, but I’m afraid that I don’t have time to go back and see where in this post or in the comments that I wrote that, but I concede that it’s quite a generalization. If you’re interested though, I discuss that in much more detail in this series of posts.
But, forgive my ignorance, but doesn’t Israel have compulsory military conscription for women also? If so, that would make it the exception that proves the rule.
Hi James-
This comment comes a bit late, but the answer to your question is that yes, in Israel both men and women are subject to compulsory military service.
David
“I really wonder what Korean men do.” (Wen Bao)
My Korean boyfriend is the same as the women. I am reduced to begging for sex and 99% of the time I don’t receive it. It’s been quite a few months without now and when I asked him how much he’ll want to in the future, the answer was less than once a year. I.e. never. I could survive on once a week if I had to, but I CANNOT survive on nothing.
What I want to know is, if you immigrate to another country and therefore the man’s work hours decrease, does your sex life improve? Rather than culture, language, or age differences, this is by far the most difficult part of our relationship.
Thanks for adding that it’s not just a problem of Korean women Mo, more a cultural thing. Sorry I don’t really have any advice for your problem (although I suspect it’s insolvable really), but it reminds me of the point I’ve read in many places (and in books on what couples should discuss before getting married), and that is that problems of different sex drives need to be sorted out well before marriage and so on. Come to think of it, here is a very good post on that. A quick excerpt:
Hope that helps. I’ve read somewhere else (can’t remember where sorry) that, male or female, when one partner is reduced to begging for sex, then (no pun intended) the relationship is seriously fucked up. For the relationship to continue, this has to be dealt with, NOW, and if he won’t compromise? Then sorry if it’s not the answer you want to hear, but it’s probably best that you break up (being virtually celibate for the rest of your life, or cheating? Fuck that!).
My wife and I also had this issue by the way, and although it was before I read all the above, we did learn to compromise, and now we’re much happier together as a result. But things were pretty dicey for a while, and although our one kid then would have complicated things, we may well not be together now if we hadn’t sorted out the sex issue. It’s not as trivial as it may at first sound, yes?
Interesting posts, although I have to wonder if I’ve been living in the same universe as everybody else because:
1) “these days only a very very small minority of Koreans would disapprove of dating or marrying a foreigner”
No Korean person I have ever met (and I have a lot of Korean friends) would ever cosider dating or (shock, horror) marrying a foreigner. These are university-educated metropolitan PhD types I am talking about here, not uneducated hicks. They also (say that they) do not know anyone who has been with a foreigner.
2) “I am reduced to begging for sex and 99% of the time I don’t receive it.”
This is impossible for me to imagine a woman saying. Absolutely impossible. A guy saying it – easy. But a woman. Now way. I have only ever me two women in my life who owned up to liking sex. One I dated (a long time ago way before I got married) and the other was just afriend but she was pretty honest about stuff like that. The rest of the women with whom I was close enough to talk about this kind of thing were really pretty ambivalent about the whole sex thing. They didn’t exactly hate it – it just was not important to them. For example, if I never had sex with my wife ever again I am sure she wouldn’t care (we have kids so sex has served its purpose). If I said “darling I’m never going to have sex with you again” she would probably be upset becasue she would think that this was a cold attitude and meant that I didn’t love her any more. But if we just let things take their course, and we ended up never doing it again, she would not complain. I should stress that I love her a lot and she is a great mother to our kids, and I would never have an affair. But I doubt that I will have sex more than 10 times in what remains of my life (I’m 39).
I am a Korean (or rather, Korean-American) woman, and I really enjoy sex. Probably just about as much as my boyfriend does. I could definitely imagine myself begging for sex, and I’d be devastated if my boyfriend suddenly stopped being interested in it. Just letting you know that there definitely is another side to the spectrum :)
Okay, thanks, I’ll try to remember that!^^
I have met a Korean single lady in her 30´s an she looked really cold, to be frank sex has not come on my mind during the work days we spent together and my libido is over the average (5 times in a week). My very little experience would rather confirm the above comments, the girl was polite, kind, even pretty but somehow I did not feel I would consider her as a partner, not just a sexual one. The coldness was obvious, she indicated to me she has had NO sexual partner yet, which also speaks about something. I spent a year in Jordan, Middle East where sex is also tabu or ot should be, but the young people there seem to have much more desires and they will do it regardless of the imposed restrictions, habits ..so in my view, the sexlessness is related with only these specific cultures incl. rural India for example, where people see sex as a tool to give birth to kids and that is it for them. I personally thank the author for the insightful article and others for their shared experience, as I myself was some time ago considering engaging in a relatiosnhip with a exotic, humble woman that would take care of the kids and would be faithful at all times. I did not expect to hear here that a Korean or Japanese woman is getting that strong and that she would dare makking her husband beg for sex by refusing it herself for even months … Someone told me Japanese women are obeying to her husbends at all times HE wants it (not the abusive or any violent way). And the fact (or opinion) that the Korean ladies have no big desire to meet and marry Western guys only implies to me that they are happy like that and have no more (no big, no different) expectations for her lifes in terms of sex and intimate life which is so important for us the Westerners. Thank God I have very rarely exeperienced this situation of having to beg for some sex at least, so also with this article I would appreciate my partner even more after reading what some guys have to suffer from when there is still love and affairs are not a solution ..I definitely think very different cultures and mentalities should stay away each other, because yes, in the beginning before the rings are put on, women know how to make them angels and it seems also these anti-sex nations (generally speaking) have these cold-blooded ladies. I did not mean to generalise, maybe there are many happy couples there, but the likeliihood of making a bad choice in Korea or Japan and then suffer is unfortunately much higher than in case of mentalities much closer to us.
For me the stress of pleaing for sex and the anxiety at being rejected by my wife is at best humiliating. I would say it’s downright psychologically damaging. Most times to satisfy a natural need I find myself on the internet at 2 in the morning cruising for porn. My wife is fine with this and looks at it as a way to release her from in her mind an ‘obligation’ I suppose. I’ve talked to several other foreign men married to Korean wives who’ve had the same experience. I’ve also heard the same from one of my female friends who is no longer with her Korean counterpart.
I think the last post makes a valid point in saying that (as I understand it) there’s no lasting emotional satisfaction up for sale at your local massage parlor. If there was I’m sure we wouldn’t need to have blogs like this to inform ourselves and open ourselves up to see from the point of view of our partner’s culture.
I do also share a belief that the only way to a truly secular society is by futher equality of the sexes. It seems that the more rights that are not denied of women, the more they seem to fulfill there own individual freedoms (including sexual).
At the moment women in their late twenties seem to still have an element of shame about sex. Much in the same way that fundamentalist Christians view sex in the States. That’s one problem I see. But even fundies have difficulties being contained in this repressive little bubble. I don’t see that Korean women have much sexual desire to repress. It’s a phenomenon. Sure, you can have sex with your Korean partner, but how many times has she initiated it? After four years I can count them on my right hand. Once because she was drunk, and another because I refused to have sex with her because of the humiliation involved in asking. Foreplay and cuddling only produce annoyance for her. Even intimate exchanges (a kiss on the cheek, a hug) are a bother. I’m worried that this lack of mutual exchanges will have an effect on our daughter who is two. In a way it’s good to know that others are dealing with the same issues. I’ll have to show this blog to my wife.
I DEFINITELY want to know whether Korean women’s attitude towards sex is brought on by the cultural environment. We are leaving Korea and a very secure financial situation. The only reasons I’m willing to uproot our family is in the faint hope that my wife might be willing to sleep with me again.
My wife will not agree to have sex with me unless it’s her idea, which only happens after weeks of humiliating begging. She also insists that it be whilst watching a movie, which I find incredibly frustrating–is she making love to me, or the cheesy romantic comedy?
In 7 years of marriage, we’ve been intimate an average of 5 times or less per year, with regular droughts of 4,5, 7 months ever since our first child was born. Before that, we had a very satisfying, regular sex life. Our second was conceived as a total (but not unwanted) fluke — making love once in a 3 month period is not the usual formula for getting pregnant. After that, she was afraid of pregnancy, and even after we worked that out, she still seems to derive pleasure from rejecting me sexually, as if i am some sex-crazed maniac for trying to initiate sex once a month. I’ve expressed my frustrations frankly on several occasions, but compromise seems out of the question. I’ve suggested counseling, but frankly, I don’t know where we’d go–I know she wouldn’t accept advice from a foreigner, and she seems to think that our situation is not abnormal. Unfortunately, in Korea, she may be right, but I’m not willing to do what many Korean men would do in my situation and start cheating.
Except for this, we are a happy family, but I can see this as something that could destroy our lives. Is there any help for people like us?
Wow, I came across this article and slew of responses as I have been unable to get over my ex-girlfriend was is Korean, and this was over 8 years ago. Insane huh? Unfortunately I had to leave Korea 3 months into our relationship due to a family emergency back home. I have never been able to get over her entirely, but reading these responses has definitely helped.
I would never beg for sex and would probably end the relationship if our sex life was gone. It is tough with having kids and living in Korea portion. If I stayed with her for the sake of the kids(until the are adults) then I would have to have a horny mistress on the side. And the funny thing is the Korean woman would probably just accept it as long as it wasn’t rubbed in her face.
Not to go too much of the Korea topic, I have had a long term live-in relationship with a Japanese woman from Japan, but we lived in Canada. We got along well, but we would have problems when her mom would tell her what to do and of course this would affect our relationship. I ended up blowing too many loads in my Japanese Girlfriend and we has a child together. Once she had given birth to our son, the sex-life went down the toilet. Sex was infrequent at best will her laying there like a dead fish. It sucked!
So now I am with a Filipina who grew mostly grew up in Canada. We have two children together and the sex life is still great.
So from me to all of you who are married to cold-fish Koreans or Japanese, if you don’t have kids, then get out now!! If you do have kids then you may have to get a mistress on the side. It sucks, but what is worse is not seeing your children.
You are probably thinking, do I still love my Korean ex, I would say a part of me does and always will. My logical side knows that the relationship was for only 3 months together and then another year of writing each other(emails and phone calls too) and that I never really truly knew here. And yes, I di bang her and her body and the sex was heavenly.
All the best,
Mr. Canada
Here is a another site which discusses marrying Korean women, that some of you may enjoy.
http://waronbull.blogspot.com/2009/05/marrying-korean-woman.html
Also please ignore my typing errors in my previous post. I am sure you will all understand what I mean.
And some last bit information of my Korean ex. She was the most beautiful woman I have ever dated in my entire life. She was also the most caring kind and sweet woman at the time. Her ass was so gorgeous that it was a work of art. Yes, that nice, that round, that amazing. She was also from Daegu. I am sure all of these attributes made it very easy for me to fall in love with her. I can’t help but wonder if she is married and torturing her current husband with blue-balls syndrome.
Ah, the memories. To quote Brocket 99, “Ah da memory. Da problem is you can’t put nuthin’ in da memory.”
[...] in Korea can be found here. Of course The Grand Narrative has to be in there, see here, here and here. This post here is from a female perspective from the blog Blonde in Saigon, er, Bundang. What a [...]
my korean girlfriend loved sex but was very self concious about enjoying it – she didnt want to show that she enjoyed it.
then we moved in together and i had to beg for it from then on . . .
no kids.
no idea why?
asked and talked about it but no response.
I never realised Korea had so many love hotels too. Sadly, Japan is started to shut down their more flamboyant love hotels which surely wont help the sexless marriage! I took some good photos for prosperity of my favourite kinky japanese hotels if you’d like to take a look:
http://www.lickmychopstick.com/love-hotel-photos/
japan stop this be loving in marriage
japan will kill itself
My parents, an American GI and Korean woman, stopped having sex after I was born. (I do have an older brother, however.) They had several other issues that share the blame, but after they divorced recently my mother told me that she hadn’t realized men need sex in a way most women don’t. One of her friends told her this just a few months ago and she was shocked to hear it, even being middle-aged in the US now. A lot of what American teens would consider basic relationship info today- I don’t know about Koreans- she never learned.
Also, when she had issues with my dad, she shut up and internalized like a good Korean girl while my dad broadcast his problems with her everywhere, so many believed the inevitable divorce was her fault. It’s amazing the things you view differently as you age, isn’t it?
[...] getting their sex at home, it’s also possible they’re getting it from somewhere else. (read Grand Narrative’s article here) Statistically, every 1 out of 4 Korean men pays for sex; in addition, the nation’s divorce [...]