“University Students’ Sex Culture is Out of Control”


I warn you: while entertaining, this article is just sensationalist tabloid trash really. Which is precisely why so many Koreans read it back in July, and now you can too!^^

하룻밤후기에 인증샷까지막가는 대학생 性문화

As far as a confirmation shot after “one night”… university students’ sex culture is out of control

  • 하룻밤 성관계 맺고 “홈런쳤다” 글 올려 / Have a one-night stand and post “hit a home run”
  • 여성을 외모 따라 엘프·휴먼·오크…게임 캐릭터에 비유 / Women described as game characters – elf, human, orc – according to their bodies
  •  만남에서 잠자리까지…온·오프라인 강좌도 / From first meeting to bed . . . on- and off-line courses

사생활 존중 안중에 없는 기형적 대인관계 우려 /Concern about abnormal personal relationships in which respect for privacy is ignored

일부 대학생들의 성(性)문화가 ‘막장’으로 치닫고 있다. 이성과의 성관계 장면을 인터넷에 올리고, 거액을 주고 성관계 맺는 법을 가르쳐주는 학원에 다니는가 하면, 스마트폰을 이용해 하룻밤 파트너를 찾아다니고 있다. 최근 문제가 된 고려대 의대생들의 동기 여학생 성추행 사건도 이 같은 ‘막장 성문화’의 한 단면을 보여준 셈이다.

The sexual culture of some university students is headed for extremes. Some post sex videos on the Internet and pay a fortune to go to academies that teach how to get sex, while others use their smartphones to look around for one-night partners.  The current problem of the Korea University medical students’ sexual molestation of a female classmate also shows an aspect of this same “extreme sexual culture.”


성관계 후기 남기고 인증샷까지 / As far as posting a confirmation shot post-sex

지난 8일 대학생 회원이 대부분인 인터넷 포털사이트의 한 카페. ‘블루’라는 아이디를 가진 회원은 “두 번째 부킹에서 만난 이날의 홈런녀는 K대 법학과 2학년. 간단히 술 마시고 모텔에 갔습니다. 집에 데려다 준 후 전화번호 삭제”라는 글을 올렸다. 글 아래에는 여학생이 벗어놓은 것으로 보이는 속옷 사진이 첨부되어 있었다. 홈런녀의 ‘홈런’은 성관계를 의미하는 은어. 이 회원이 남긴 글은 ‘홈런 후기’, 속옷 사진은 ‘홈런 인증’에 해당한다고 한다.

July 8th, on an Internet portal site’s cafe whose members are mostly university students.  A member with the ID “Blue” posted, “Today’s home run girl, the second I met though booking [process, found in some clubs, in which waitstaff drag women over to meet male patrons], is a second-year law student at K University.  We briefly drank alcohol and then went to a motel.  Erased her number after taking her home.”  At the bottom of the post there is an attached picture of undergarments that look like a female student took them off.  The “home run” in “home run girl” is slang for sex.  They say the post that this member left represents “post-home run”, and the underwear picture is “home run confirmation.”

이 카페의 다른 글에는 이성과 어떻게 만났는지, 모텔에 갈 때까지의 과정, 상대 여성의 나이와 신체 사이즈는 물론 학교·전공까지 상세히 적혀 있었다. 사실성을 부각시키기 위해 글의 말미에는 사진이 붙어 있다. ‘인증샷’이라고도 하는 이 사진 중에는 성관계 후 자고 있는 이성의 모습은 물론 가슴, 성기, 얼굴 등이 그대로 노출되어 있는 것도 있다. 심지어 ‘구장 입장권'(모텔 신용카드 영수증)을 첨부하는 회원도 있다. 이런 ‘인증샷’ 아래에는 “대박이다” “부러워요” “저도 가르쳐주세요” 등 수백개의 댓글이 달린다. 글을 남긴 회원은 부러움을 받는 동시에 이들 세계의 ‘영웅’이 되는 것이다. 이들 카페에는 전혀 알지 못하는 회원들끼리 나이트클럽으로 ‘사냥’을 떠나자는 글도 쉽게 찾아볼 수 있다.

In other posts in this cafe, there is of course how they met the other person, the process leading to the motel, and the female partner’s age and size, and also as far as school and major are written in detail.  To highlight the reality, pictures are attached to the end of the post.  Among these pictures, also called “confirmation shots,” there are of course the woman’s post-sex sleeping form, and also their breasts, genitals, and faces as they may be exposed.  There are members who even attach the “stadium ticket” (motel credit card receipt).  Below these “confirmation shots” there are hundreds of replies like, “Awesome,” “I envy you,” and, “Teach me too.”  The member who posted this is being envied, and he is becoming the “hero” of these people’s world at the same time.  In their cafe, it is also easy to find posts in which members who don’t know each other at all invite each other to go “hunting” in a nightclub.

서울의 한 사립대 경영학과 4학년인 최모(26)씨는 “친구들과 일주일에 한 번 정도 ‘원나잇’을 즐기기 위해 클럽에 간다”며 “누가 홈런을 많이 치는지 경쟁을 하고 카페에 글도 남긴다”고 했다.


A Mr. Choi (26), fourth-year business management student at a private university in Seoul, said, “About once a week I go to clubs with my friends to enjoy a one-night stand.  We compete to see who can hit the most home runs, and leave posts in cafes.”

다른 포털사이트에서도 유사한 카페를 쉽게 찾을 수 있다. 인기 카페는 회원이 5만명을 넘는다. 글 내용에 ‘계절학기’ ‘수강신청’ ‘취업’이라는 단어가 자주 등장, 대학생 회원이 대부분이라는 사실을 알 수 있다. 남성 회원이 많지만 일부 카페는 여성만 회원으로 받고 있으며, 여성이 올린 ‘인증샷’과 ‘후기’도 가끔씩 찾아볼 수 있다.

It is easy to find similar cafes on other portal sites.  Popular cafes have more than 5,000 members.  At the frequent appearance of phrases like “vacation school”, “course registration”, and “getting a job,” one can know that most of the members are university students. There are many male members, but some cafes accept only women as members, and “confirmation shots” and “post-[home run]” uploaded by women can sometimes be found.

이런 카페들은 대부분 2008년 이후 개설됐으며 최근 회원이 급속히 늘어나고 있다. 한 인기 카페의 경우 글과 사진의 절반이 올해 올라온 것이었다. 특히 카페의 글에는 은어가 많아 기성세대들이 이해하기가 어려울 정도. 처음 보는 이성과 전화번호를 교환했을 경우엔 ‘#-close’, 키스를 했다면 ‘k-close’ 라고 칭하고, 성관계를 했을 경우 ‘F-close’ 라고 표시한다. ‘홈런’과 달리 성관계를 하지 못하고 돈만 쓰고 나왔을 경우엔 ‘내상’이라는 용어를 쓴다.

Most of these kinds of cafes have been opened since 2008, and these days the number of members is rapidly rising. In one popular cafe’s case, half of the posts and pictures were posted this year.  In cafe posts, especially, there is so much slang in the posts that the older generation will find them hard to understand. Exchanging phone numbers with the other person is “#-close”, kissing is termed “k-close”, and sex is indicated by “F-close.”  In contrast to “home run”, when they don’t have sex and leave after just spending money, the term “nae-sahng” is used [Marilyn – language exchange partner thinks this may be the opposite of 외상 (wae-sahng) which means to buy something on credit; so basically it would be paying for something now but not getting it].

상대 여성을 지칭한 용어도 노골적이다. 얼굴과 몸매가 뛰어난 여성은 ‘엘프(요정이란 의미)’, 평범한 여성은 ‘휴먼(사람이란 의미)’, 외모가 떨어지는 여성을 ‘오크(괴물이란 뜻)’로 표현하는 식이다. 인터넷 게임에 등장하는 캐릭터 이름으로 이성관계를 게임에 비유하고 있는 것. 지난해 대학을 졸업한 회사원 정모(29)씨는 “후배들과 모이면 무슨 얘기를 하는지 알아들을 수가 없다”며 “같은 20대인데도 세대 차이가 느껴진다”고 했다.

There terms used for the female partner are also frank.  In their style of expression, women with outstanding faces and bodies are “elves”, average women are “humans”, and women with below-average appearances are “orcs.”  This is comparing relationships with the opposite sex to a game, through names of characters from Internet games.  A Mr. Jeong (29), who graduated from university last year, said, “When I get together with my juniors [younger people from the same school], I can’t understand what they’re saying.  Even though we’re all in our 20s, I feel a generational gap.”

(Sources: left, right)

스마트폰, 막장 성문화 부채/ Smartphones, fanning the flames of extreme sexual culture

최근 보급되고 있는 스마트폰은 막장 성문화의 주요 도구로 이용되고 있다. 스마트폰의 보급률과 인터넷 카페 게시물의 증가 시기가 일치하고, 선정적 게시물도 최근 집중적으로 늘어나고 있는 것. 스마트폰을 가지고 있는 대학생의 수는 지난 1월 기준으로 50%를 돌파했다. 스마트폰에는 고화질의 카메라 기능이 있을 뿐 아니라 인터넷 기능까지 있어 손쉽게 사진을 찍고 글을 올릴 수 있는 것이다.

Smartphones, popular these days, are being used as the main tools of extreme sexual culture.  The distribution rate of smart phones coincides with the age of rising numbers of Internet cafe posts, and suggestive posts, especially, are currently rising.  The number of university students who have smart phones has risen 50% since January.  Smartphones have not just a high-definition camera, but also Internet access, so one can easily take a photo and make a post.

여기에 이성과의 즉석 만남을 가능하게 해 준 애플리케이션이 등장하면서 스마트폰은 일회성 성문화를 더욱 부추기고 있다. 인터넷 카페 등에는 ‘하데로 홈런친 이야기’ ‘1㎞ 홈런 인증’ 등의 글을 쉽게 찾을 수 있다. 하데(하이데어)와 1㎞는 즉석 만남을 주선하는 스마트폰의 애플리케이션이다. 이용자가 100만명이나 되는 이런 애플리케이션은 반경 1㎞ 안에 있는 가입자들의 목록을 보여주고, 전혀 모르는 불특정 다수의 사람들이 쪽지를 교환할 수 있는 프로그램이다. 대학생 김모(26)씨는 “여자들에게 만나자는 쪽지를 쭉 돌리다 보면 한두 명 답이 온다”면서 “만나는 과정이 쉬울수록 그날 밤을 같이 보낼 확률도 높다”고 했다. 이런 애플리케이션의 보급으로 소셜네트워크서비스(SNS) 시대의 연애, 즉 소셜데이팅(Social Dating)이란 용어가 탄생했지만 건전한 교제보다는 ‘하룻밤 교제’에 사용되는 사례도 적지 않은 것이다.

Moreover, with the appearance of apps that make possible impromptu meetings with members of the opposite sex, smartphones are further encouraging one-off sexual culture.  In sites like Internet cafes, it is easy to find posts like, “story of a home run through Ha-deh” and “1km  home run confirmation.”  Ha-deh (ha-ee-dey-uh [hi there]) and 1km are smartphone applications that arrange impromptu meetings.  Apps like this, which have 1 million users, are programs that show a list of members within a radius of one kilometer and allow random, unknown people to exchange messages. University student Mr. Kim (26), said, “If I keep sending out messages to girls saying, ‘Let’s meet,’ I get answers from one or two people.  The easier it is to meet, the higher the chance that we will spend that night together.”  Through the popularity of this kind of app, dating in the era of social network service (SNS), or “Social Dating” was born, but there are fewer instances of it being used for healthy relationships than for “one-night relationships.”

성관계 가르치는 학원 / Academies that teach sex

비뚤어진 성문화는 새 직업도 만들어냈다. 할리우드 영화 ‘미스터 히치(Mr. Hichi)’와 우리나라 영화 ‘시라노 연애조작단’에 나오는 이른바 연애 컨설턴트다. 연애 컨설턴트는 연애를 못하거나 짝사랑에 잠 못 이루는 남녀를 구제해 주는 직업으로 1980년대 미국에서 처음 시작된 것으로 알려져 있다.

Warped sexual culture has also generated new jobs.  They are so-called dating consultants, like in the Hollywood movie Hitch and the Korean movie Cyrano Agency.  Dating consultants, beginning in the United States in the 1980s, are known as jobs for saving men or women who are bad at dating or can’t fulfill their one-sided love.

그러나 우리나라에선 연애 컨설턴트의 역할이 변질돼 길거리와 클럽에서 이성을 유혹하는 법, 단 한 번의 만남으로 성관계를 갖는 방법 등을 가르치고 있다.

However, dating consultants’ role in Korea is degenerate and involves teaching methods like ways to seduce the opposite sex on the street or in a club, and how to get from the first meeting to sex in just one shot.

‘픽업 아티스트’라고도 불리는 이들은 남성 전용 인터넷 카페에서 주로 활동한다. 자칭 ‘연애 고수’ ‘작업의 달인’들이 픽업 아티스트이다. 이들은 주로 대학생 회원들을 상대로 돈을 받고 ‘비법’을 가르친다. 통상 온라인 수강료는 30만원, 오프라인 수강료는 150만원쯤 한다. 단과반과 종합반으로 나뉠 뿐 아니라 1박 2일 동안 집중 교육을 받는 ‘부트캠프(신병훈련소)’까지 있다. 길거리에서 여성을 유혹하는 ‘헌팅이론’, 나이트클럽에서 이성을 유혹하는 ‘클럽이론’, 즉석 만남에서 잠자리까지 이르는 방법을 가르치는 ‘홈런이론’ 등 학과목도 다양하다. 픽업 아티스트 A씨는 “20대 초반 대학생들이 주요 수강생”이라며 “말하는 법부터 (전화)번호 따는 법, 홈런치는 법까지 다 가르쳐준다”고 했다. 그는 또 “직접 제작한 교재를 사용하는데, 강의를 듣고 나면 인생이 180도 바뀔 것”이라고 주장했다.


These people, also known as “pickup artists,” are mainly active on men’s Internet cafes.  The self-styled “dating masters” and “come-on experts” are pickup artists. They mainly receive money from and teach the “secret method” to university students.  Usually, tuition for online is 300,000 won and for offline is about 1.5 million won.  They are not just split up into specialized courses and comprehensive courses, but there are even two-day/one-night “boot camps” for intensive instruction.  There is a variety of subjects, like “hunting theory”, which is how to seduce a woman on the street, “club theory”, for how to seduce the opposite sex in a night club, and “home run theory”, which teaches how to get from a first meeting to bed [in one shot].  Pickup artist “A” said, “Students are mainly university students in their early 20s.  I teach everything from how to speak, to how to get a (phone) number, to how to hit a home run.”  He also claimed, “I use teaching materials that I made myself; after attending my lecture your life will turn around 180 degrees.”

전문가들은 막장 성문화에 대해 대인관계의 왜곡은 물론 사생활 침해 등 우리 사회에 많은 부작용을 가져올 수 있다고 경고한다. 서강대 사회학과 전상진 교수는 “즉흥성에 의존한 인간관계가 젊은이들 사이에서 이뤄지고 있다”며 “깊숙한 관계가 되기 위해선 인간관계의 친밀도가 필요한데 젊은이들 사이에선 인터넷 기술 등의 발달로 인스턴트 섹스의 갈망이 커지고 있다”고 했다. 전 교수는 또 “인증샷 등을 볼 때 개인의 사생활을 지켜줘야 한다는 생각도 느슨해지고 있다. 기형적이고 불구 상태의 대인관계가 사회에 만연할까 우려스러울 정도”라고 했다.

Experts warn that extreme sexual culture could have side effects like distortion of personal relationships and of course violation of private life. Sogang University sociology professor Jeon Sang Jin said, “Relationships that depend on off-handednss are happening between young people. For a deep relationship, a level of [emotional] closeness is necessary, but between young people, with the development of things like Internet technology, the desire for instant sex is growing.”  Professor Jeon added, “When we see things like confirmation shots, our belief that personal privacy must be protected loosens.  I wonder if personal relationships’ abnormal and deformed state will spread in society, to an alarming level.”

Writers: Seok Nam-jun (namjun@chosun.com); interns Seo Sang-hee (4th year Chung-ang University student) and Kim Hyeon-gyeong (4th year Ehwa Women’s University student)

(Thanks very much to Marilyn for the translation)


52 thoughts on ““University Students’ Sex Culture is Out of Control”

    1. Please, PUAs range from misled men who think that there’s some kind of magical system that will cover up their social akwardness to serious creeps who seem to think that consent is for losers. The “game” proposes an adversarial and manipulative relationship between the genders that treats women as prey. It’s not a free love community looking to promote sexual equality, it’s a loosely related set of bogus theories that range from faking an interesting personality to outright sexual harrassment.


      1. I’m going to have to disagree with you. I personally learned “pick-up” to help alleviate extreme social anxieties I felt as a teenager and it has helped me immensely in improving my quality of friendships and love-life. I will agree that there are many creeps out there who use pick-up arts solely for sex and disregard women’s feelings. I will also agree that some of the theories (especially the early ones) bordered on sexism and harassment, but the PUA community has come a long way in removing the theories that were deemed harassing in favor of theories that rely on building character and relaying this to women. Early versions often talked about faking and making-up things that women found interesting, but now (at least in the new theories developed in the last year in the US) it’s about BEING INTERESTING, not faking being interesting.

        PUAs who use these theories for their sexual gratification with little to no regard for privacy and women’s rights piss me off and I in no way endorse them. I feel that learning pick-up has made me a better person as I’m more aware of how my old behaviors were the truly harassing and creepy behaviors. I learned to let go and make not only myself but also women feel better about themselves. The motto of the PUA community is “Leave them better than you found them,” meaning whenever your relations end, make sure the woman is happy that she was able to meet a person like you.

        My real point here is that your all-encompassing statement about pick-up artists is false, because not all of us are out there to manipulate you or violate your rights or privacy. Many of us just want to improve how women see us and the quality of our relationships with women. It’s a shame that the whole community has to be tarnished because some people learn pick-up for the wrong reasons.


        1. How about you improve how people see you through counselling for whatever social anxiety is holding you back instead of adhering to an eye-rollingly ridiculous set of theories about how women are supposed to think and behave?
          Hey, really, I’ve got no beef with men who find that they have trouble interacting with other people looking for ways to ease their akwardness and connect with people. And yeah, some of the PUA-light stuff out there is relatively harmless. But the community as a whole? Not harmless. The substantial overlap between PUA and MRA groups should worry people. The relative prominence of people like Gunwich in the movement is a sign of serious problems in your “community.”
          How about instead of learning a pseudo-psychological system to “pick-up” women, you and other people with social anxieties seek help that will help you conquer those problems?


      1. Ugh, I can’t believe a doctor would be so damn irrepsonsible:

        Choi Young-shik, a professor at Yonsei University medical school, said, “We cannot treat birth control pills as an absolutely safe form of medication. Some parts of the campaign are going too far.”

        Really? Because they’re about as safe as it gets. It’s one of the single most studied medications in human history. You’re more likely to have life-threatening problems because of asprin. Seriously. And all the things in this campaign (reducing acne, etc.) are . . .well, real potential benefits of the pill. I mean, it’s hormones and it’s not perfect for everybody. But it’s just not dangerous. What’s dangerous is telling college students to avoid a safe and effective method of controlling their fertility.


          1. To be honest birth control pills are not safe. It’s not safe to drink hormones no matter what some birth control makers say. The side effects shouldn’t be underestimated. I know of no girl taking the pill who doesn’t complain. I think condoms can do just fine for young people, I think it’s good that young girls in Korea don’t take in hormones.

            It was very interesting to find out that pick up has invaded Korea but unfortunately they seem not to get its true message. I think it’s good to break the stereotypes in Korean society and I definitely would prefer Korean men to be less shy. But I’m afraid too many of them can just use pick up for sleeping with random girls and some of these men will never start to respect women… It’s a pity


          2. Do you have any actual evidence that pills “are not safe”? Or that it’s “not safe to drink [the miniscule dosage of] hormones [in 3rd generation pills]”? And just saying for the sake of argument that you’re right in both cases, how come they’re bad for “young” – read: unmarried – people, but apparently just fine for older couples?

            Frankly, I’m just sick to death of such ill-informed, sweeping pronouncements, akin to “Kimchi prevents SARS”. At the very least, I think you’re going to have to try a lot harder to convince all the poor, unhealthy, women out there daily risking their lives by taking the pill (and their partners).


          3. I never said they were all right for anyone. I was talking about condoms – they are the best method for women who haven’t given birth.
            The pill contains steroid hormones and their way of working is by supressing the natural functions of the body. There are so many side effects and they are even written. I know many girls who take the pill and most of them complain. Of course, companies that make money try their best to convince us that they are harmless but I would rather not trust them. And I know many girls that took the pill because of health problems and it didn’t help in the long term. Sending constant signals to your brain that you are pregnant (that is what the pill actually does) does affect the body no matter how good marketing campaigns might be. I advice people not to buy everything they hear and see and not be easily convinced by people who are not interested in people’s health but in making money.
            Hormones are very important in body regulation and people who suffer hormonal disbalance know how bad it is. Why should women with no hormonal disbalance mess up their hormones?


          4. Um, except they are safe. And there’s steroid related chemicals in tons of medications. It doesn’t mean that women are on some kind of ‘roids that are making us crazy.
            And the pill doesn’t make your body think it’s pregnant. It’s a common misunderstanding of how the pill works, but incorrect. It prevents ovulation, but women are not constantly ovulating when they’re not pregnant anyway.
            To counter your vaugue “anecdata,” I know lots of women who had a few mild side affects on the pill, and lots who have none. I know women who have found profound relief from medical problems thanks to hormonal BC, including depression, cysts, acne, PMDD, and PCOS. And guess what else? Most of the side affects that women complain about from the pill are mild, temporary, and many of them also occur in women who aren’t on the pill as part of their “natural” hormonal cycle.
            It does not “mess up” your hormones. It regulates them.
            Are they right for everybody? No. But heck, neither is Tylenol – which, by the way, are way easier to overdose on and do serious damage to your body with than BC. Have you ever heard of somebody dying of a BC overdose? No? That’s because it’s pretty much impossible. But hundreds of people die every year from acetaminophen overdoses.
            You’ve also overlooked tons of other prefectly safe birth control methods for women who have not yet had children, including hormonal implants, rings, and patches, IUDs, diaphrams, foams, etc.
            Me, presonally? I’m happy to trust companies with good marketing campaigns (and for the record, I’ve never seen my brand advertized) when they have a scientifically proven safety record and effectiveness of 98%


          5. @Rumi: Call me sticking my head in the sand, but I’m not even going to bother clicking on any of those links to homeopathy websites, as I seriously doubt their objectivity: homeopathy is a treatment so conclusively proven to be no more effective than a placebo, that the British Homeopathic Association refuses to participate in controlled tests, lest they be forced to admit that. Also, I find it pointless to engage with someone who thinks pharmaceutical companies invariably lie about possible side effects of the pill simply by virtue of being a pharmaceutical company (do you say the same thing about everything pharmaceutical companies produce?), at least until they also acknowledge that medical associations (most notoriously the Japanese one, which banned the pill until 1998) and manufacturers and providers of other contraceptives likewise have vested interests in scaremongering about the pill.

            Granted, the pill is not for everyone, like many other commenters have stated. But at the very least, the positive experiences they and their partners, friends, and relatives etc. have generally had with the pill – let alone official statistics – makes your assertions that you “know many girls who take the pill and most of them complain” tiresome and unconvincing.


          6. It’s up to you if you take homeopathy as a true healing method. If you knew more about it you would know why it proves to non effective when tested the same way other medicines are tested. If you would like to know what you are denying you can try to learn more about it but you can stick to believing everything that is officially stated by western countries. I prefer to doubt it the same way I doubt a Coca-cola commercial. I don’t say they always lie but marketing campaigns may be misleading.
            I don’t think everything such companies produce is bad but I do refuse to be treated with antibiotics and OC or hormones. I don’t take any other pills but homeopathic as well but this is my choice. I think more people should hear this point of view about OC instead of blindly trusting the marketing. And I think the Korean doctor was absolutely right to say this and shouldn’t be labelled as a bad and irresponsible one.


          7. Well, now your statements are just downright batty:

            If you knew more about [homeopathy] you would know why it proves to non effective when tested the same way other medicines are tested

            Hey, it doesn’t matter if it’s pixie dust or Coca Cola: if people using something to treat themselves are no more likely to be cured than if they’re using a sugar pill, then it plain and simple doesn’t work.

            If you would like to know what you are denying you can try to learn more about it but you can stick to believing everything that is officially stated by western countries

            Who or what are the “official voices” of these (evil) Western countries exactly? Wouldn’t they include that of the British Homeopathic Association that I critiqued in my last comment?

            You’re free to respond if you wish, but after bizarre comments like your last, I’m not bothering with your drivel any more, and would encourage other readers not to either.


          8. “I know of no girl taking the pill who doesn’t complain.”

            Funny, I know more than a few who are happier than ever and not just because they don’t have to worry about getting pregnant. Properly used the pill can regulate periods in a way that makes them far more manageable.

            In any event, it’s none of your business now is it?


          9. One of those people? I can say the same about you. You are one of those people who don’t accept another point of view and think it’s wrong for a doctor to say birth control pills aren’t completely safe. OK, it’s up to you, I don’t want to convince anybody but I find it a pity people are so short-sighted. I don’t find it bad in any way that OC aren’t popular in Korea, you are the ones who think they should be. And the Korean doctor has the right to express his view, he’s a doctor after all.
            Homeopathy is getting more and more popular, you have the right not to accept it of course but don’t Korean doctors have the right not to accept OC? Or the fact that I have chosen homeopathy makes what I’m saying rubbish?


  1. Are you condemning “Pick-Up Artists” or just translating this article? I think it’s full of shit. The fact is that like it or not some pick-up material DOES in fact work. Why has the PUA community grown so much? Because during the last few decades women have become increasingly picky, independent, and perhaps suffer from ‘entitlement syndrome’ with out-of-whack expectations of men (this is especially the case is the Western world, where feminism’s main theme has transformed from ‘equality’ to ‘privileges’). Where does it come from? Hollywood? Dramas? Romance novels? Feminism? Probably all of it. I’m sorry but men’s natural biological desire for sex doesn’t magically disappear as women become increasingly ‘independent’.


    1. Maybe we’re just sensibly avoiding men who think that their romantic problems are steming from *women* feeling entitled? Because a guy complaining that he has to use PUA’s pseudo-psychology to meet women because of “feminism” and “Hollywood” strikes me as a guy with entitlement problems of his own.
      @ Geun – guys like J-F are *exactly* why the PUA “community” does not get the general stamp of approval.


      1. I’ve been interested in pick up for a long time and while I was initially disgusted by it (I’m a woman after all) I found out it does say some true things and it does work. I don’t think the problems is women are too entitled, the problem is many men don’t know how to apply their masculinity in today’s world and become confused. And of course men with problems turn to it, if a man has no problems communicating with girls why would he need pick-up? I think men should be given the chance to improve their social skills and to become attractive to girls. o matter how much society has change women are still attracted to the same things as in the past. I think more men need to know about how attraction works.And many of the things I’ve read can apply towomen as well. So if you really what it is about it is not that bad.


      1. How much a woman earns has nothing to do with dating scene and the way of courting. Plus according to pick-up it’s not the women’s fault that they don’t want to date a certain, it’s the man’s fault and he needs to improve. It’s very easy to say women are b*itches and that’s why I don’t get laid but the real reason you never get any girl is because you might be a loser (don;t take it literally) and don’t know how to behave around girls, have no idea how to talk to them and how to approach them. Well, some men go on thinking it’s not their fault that women don;t like them, it’s just that women are such gold-diggers and/or b*tches but those men will never be able to have a committed relationship with any woman.
        There are also men who are very successful in other areas of their lives but still have no idea what to do when they ike a certain woman. They do respect women but just cannot get a girlfriend. And that’s when pick-up can help. It teaches men how to make a woman want them and feel attracted to them, not to use money or to force them. Women can only be benefited from that. I think men in Korea do need that as too many of them rely on money to get a woman and marriage and relationships there are viewed more as a duty.
        Of course using manipulative methods to sleep with as many women as possible and then throw them away and brag to your friends is not the best a man can do…


        1. Ok, I can’t do anything but laugh at someone who thinks that money has nothing to do with dateing or courtship. It’s not a simple money = dating success, but it’s not out of the equation by any means.
          But here’s my big objection to PUAs:
          Women are not a strange species. There is no special way to “talk to them” or “approach them.” There’s something inherently wrong with the belief that you can teach men “how to make a woman want them and feel attracted to them.” We’re people. Treat us like people. Like all people, we are not automatically attracted to certain things at all times. You cannot make us want you. Either we want you or we don’t, but it’s not something you get a lot of say in besides treating us like individuals with wants, needs, and desires that cannot be written up in a universal book about women.
          Get this through your thick PUA skulls – there is no magic trick or special method that will ensure you success. We are not wildebeasts, you are not on safari. If you have social anxiety that makes it hard for you to talk to women, you have a problem with social anxiety and women that you need to work out. You do not need a “pick up” method, you need to examine your own psyche.


          1. But why laugh? Why not just educate without the snarky remarks towards a person’s character? You make some very good points but they often get lost in your delivery. If you’re really trying to get your point across, do stop adding fuel to an already well lit fire.


          2. I’m sorry, do you have something to say about PUAs or other subjects raised in the post? Because right now, you’re just commenting on style (a matter of taste) without adding any substance to the conversation whatsoever. So basically . . . um you’re just doing what you’re complaining about me doing, except without even having a good point.


  2. Very good post but my comment isn’t related, I’m afraid I just couldn’t wait to bring this up:..The Brown Eyed Girls come back!

    What is your take on this James and co? Coming from one of the most provocative and sexually assertive female groups in Korea, I’ve been eagerly awaiting their comeback, and for me it certainly doesn’t disappoint. Not only do they put on a bloody good show, but the MV seems like a very direct challenge to the censor board, but in a good way, not in a Hyuna Bubble Pop kinda way! Thoughts on this anyone?


  3. …Oh, and I realise I haven’t commented on here in an age so no one will know who I am, but despite that I have been a follower of this blog for about two years now. Keep up the good work James :)



  4. Gomushin Girl, I have to say I think you are dead wrong about how “eye-rollingly” ridiculous some PUA stuff is. I won’t deny there is creepy stuff out there, but speaking as someone who went from useless with women to pretty good in a very short time, a lot of it works well. And I make no apologies for having had a great time as a result.

    Why should someone have to go counseling when they could simply learn a few logical truths — which we are taught not to follow — which can be essentially summed as women (and men) value what is difficult to get? The old saying, “play hard to get” could not be more correct.

    The reality — and women don’t like to hear this, but I believe it to be true — is that what women SAY they are attracted to and ARE attracted to is often very, very different. Female friends will give you the worst advice because they will tell you how they wish the world is, instead of how it actually is. The truth is that women often don’t go for the nicest or sweetest guy in the room, and are often attracted to more base, less nobles qualities. And I am not saying you have to be — or should be — an asshole to be attractive to women, but that people like a challenge. There is something behind “nice guys finish last”.


    1. As Seri said, yuck.
      Actually, most women do like nice men. Not “nice guys.”
      I know very few women who have spent extensive amounts of time dating and then later marrying jerks. They do not particularly like men who are “challenges” or have “more base, less noble qualities.” They mostly date and marry men who treat them as individual human beings who they love and respect. And men who believe that women lie about what they want and think that playing hard to get makes them more attractive don’t score high on the love and respect part.


    2. Goshiwon,

      You said: “The reality — and women don’t like to hear this, but I believe it to be true — is that what women SAY they are attracted to and ARE attracted to is often very, very different.”

      When you start making generalizations about women, no matter what your argument is, it all goes to pieces.

      For example, logic like the one you stated allow men to rape women because they actually “want”. And please don’t tell me not to go there because the idea that women cannot/do not express their true desires is at the core of some very horrific crimes against women. Surely you made that comment in jest?


      1. The reality is that they start from a position where they expect dishonest and antagonistic relationships between the sexes, and interpret everything from within that framework. They then selectively target women who are more likely to share sexist views, which then “confirms” what they know. And once they feel that they’ve confirmed women’s basic dishonesty, they then don’t need to listen to other women outside their select sample who tell them any different.
        In fact, the study I mentioned elsewhere in this thread explicitly notes that PUAs are more likely than other men to use coercive measures, which can include rape. It’s a lovely piece of “logic” – women who respond to them do so because PUA methods must work, right? And if it’s not working, it’s because the women really want their attentions but are afraid (“slut defense” etc.) Therefore, PUAs are ok pushing women who don’t consent.


  5. I never said anyone was lying. But don’t people often tell others what is acceptable or nice rather than the uncomfortable truth? And I never said you shouldn’t treat women as individuals, of course you should. But the reality is there are ways of acting and presenting yourself that up your chances 1000 percent. And guess what? We are all biological beings; we react to things far beyond our conscious, civilized selves. I know this for a fact because I have been there. Be yourself is fine unless “yourself” is not initially very attractive.

    Why is it so hard to make this point without people getting aggressive? “Thick skulls” etc. I am not stupid, thanks. And I haven’t hurt anyone either.

    Countless guys who have gone from watching every girl they’ve been attracted to want to be their friend, to actually having romantic relationships and encounters would disagree with you. I can’t comment on the “community,” whatever that is. But certainly books like “The Game” speak a LOT of sense.

    You hate what is being said and that’s fine, but you can’t account for the fact that lots of men have improved themselves and become much happier through a little bit of confidence and a different approach. I see no problem with that.


    1. http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp02142004.shtml

      see also this excellent explainer: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/12/explainer-what-is-nice-guy.html

      Now, surely in this world there are men who are shy or socially awkward and intimidates by the thought of trying to approach women. And lo, some of these men may have benefited from an exorbitantly priced “seminar” or a pamphlet padded out to book length because a little of the advice contained therein was applicable to their problem, i.e. not presenting themselves for opportunities to meet and interact with the gender of their choice (which begs the question – does the gay community have “nice guys/girls”?).

      But in the end, their success isn’t because they found some awesome technique that will guarantee women falling into their arms or a fool-proof system bolstered by real science – it’s because they actually engaged in trying to meet people as opposed to sitting around feeling anxious about it. Lo and behold, if you engage socially with women and keep asking different ones out, eventually some of them will say yes. If you try dating them, eventually one or two might be interested in a long term relationship with you. But it’s not because of some technique a guy in a silly suit has perfected for bringing women to their knees.

      Which brings us to the more disturbing parts, where nasty misogyny meets pure stupid luck. People like Mystery aren’t getting lots of dates because their silly technique has some real power. They’re getting dates because they’re playing a numbers game in a very particular set of circumstances. And heck, half their “success” isn’t at all what they say it is.

      Funny thing, these programs always take people to bars and clubs with lots of young people. Congratulations, it’s a miracle that in a social setting designed to allow people to meet each other for potential relationships that you find somebody who will respond to your overtures! Now, add in that some of these women may also be looking to get/give phone numbers, or even go home with a dude . . . oh wait, that would mean that your magic technique isn’t a technique at all, just lucky happenstance that two people wanted the same thing. Seriously, you could have left the overwrought pick up line at home, not worn a pirate costume and still have met women. It’s not a special bit of evolutionary psychology that turned an otherwise uninterested lady into a lady who wanted to go home with you that night, it was good luck. Because she was already interested, which is why she was at that bar talking to guys in the first place.

      And then there’s that lovely gloss of misogyny, with PUAs that focus their efforts on taking insecure women and making them feel bad about themselves. Ah, negging – what a lovely thing to do to a person. Yeah, a person who gives backhanded compliments to others has totally made themselves a better person. Sure thing. And shall we discuss the PUAs who essentially coach date rape, and who take advantage of the fact that women have been socialized (which is not a synonym for “inherently”) to not call men out even when they do creepy, icky stuff that makes them uncomfortable?

      Women are not meat-robots. And as this shows, it’s not guaranteed success, either – http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/more_on_pick_up_artists_and_george_sodini/

      If there’s something unattractive about your personality, gimmicks aren’t going to cover it. Can you get a number at a bar crowded with young things looking to hook up? Yeah, probably. But that’s going to the right place for what you want, not a reflection of the validity of PUA techniques. Be an interesting person, but don’t fake it.

      So, dear men who are currently wishing for more romantic success:

      I have advice that will almost certainly help you. Not only that, you can achieve this without striving to be an asshole under the mistaken assumption that that’s what women like, because it’s not and it won’t work. This advice is also free, meaning you can save $20 bucks on a copy of the Game (currently on sale at Amazon.com!) and thousands of dollars off that Vegas dating seminar. You can even put that money towards enjoying romantic evenings with women who are genuinely interested in you, rather than the brand of eyeliner you wear.

      1) Talk to people. Lots of people. Women are people, and talking to them is not really so very different than talking to male people. Amazingly, many of them find conversation enjoyable and a good way to asses whether there is any mutual interest. And since there’s lots of ways to be interesting, you’ll just have to talk it out until you find yours.

      2) If you are interested in one of these people you are talking to, express that interest! Most people are not psychic, and cannot magically intuit that you are really interested in them as a long term romantic partner and/or seeing her undressed. Best case scenario: She’s the one, you form a long-standing romantic partnership and your epic relationship is immortalized in song, story, and 3-D summer film extravaganzas for centuries to come. AWESOME! or, perhaps equally awesome, you go to a mutually approved place and have wicked, wonderful sexual relations beyond your wildest fantasies, once you’ve obtained safe and effective birth control!

      Worst case scenario: She isn’t interested. (Actually, wait: Worst case scenario is she says no so you decide to use some rancid PUA technique and end up sitting in jail for sexual assault.)

      3) Repeat as necessary until you find someone with whom you are mutually compatible. This can take time, so be patient.


  6. Of course you should talk to lots of women. But it is not as simple as you make out, with respect. For some, that means lots of success; for others that means lots of friends (which is fine of course unless you want more). And, yes, lots of relationships might be superficial and found at a bar — but so what if everyone is having fun?

    That cartoon and your depiction of guy-girl relations neglect the fact that befriending women can often lead to you being just that: a friend and nothing more. Zillions of guys have had the experience of being attentive and caring toward a women of their interest, only for them to chose someone less so for a partner/fling etc. It is not simply about asking them out. And, yes, obviously you can’t win them all, but you can help your chances.

    We’ll just have to disagree but, fundamentally, we all (women and men) to some extent want what we don’t have. That’s human nature. It’s as clear as day. So it is not about being nice or not nice; it is about being something of a challenge, of having value in their eyes. What’s easy to get is seen as less valuable — doesn’t matter what scenario.

    Once I realized that people want something hard to obtain all the more, my love life improved 10-fold. And I bet any number of men would say the same thing. You are coming at this from a female perspective and that’s fine, and I respect that; but many men’s experience speaks of a different reality.


    1. Goshiwon –

      Women don’t owe dudes sex, physical affection, or romance as an exchange for friendship. Just no. Full stop. If men offer a woman friendship, well, they’re owed friendship in return. Friendship. Not sex, not love, not a fling.

      If a guy offers a woman a shoulder to cry on when she breaks up with her boyfriend, it doesn’t mean he gets to be her next boyfriend. It means he gets to cry on her shoulder when his girlfriend breaks up with him. Get that?

      If I befriend a dude, I am not doing it because I want to bang him. I’m befriending him to be his friend. Try it sometime.

      You and your ilk are not owed sex because you were “nice” to a woman. Especially if you were only nice because you were trying to get into her pants. That’s not even really nice, that’s manipulative and creepy.

      And those guys that women are actually dating? They’re not lesser dudes. They’re our partners, people engaging with us on a real and honest level. I sincerely doubt your “success” encompasses anything so rewarding.


  7. Wow…

    I never said women owed men sex. What are you talking about? You are just inventing some argument I never made. And now you are personally insulting me. Talking to you is a waste of time because you are responding to your idea of who I am and what I am saying. Forget it.


    1. “Zillions of guys have had the experience of being attentive and caring toward a women of their interest, only for them to chose someone less so for a partner/fling etc.”


  8. Where does that say women owe men anything? It doesn’t and you know that. You are reading what you want I am afraid — not what I wrote. All I was saying that such a scenario can be frustrating and disheartening. What’s so outrageous about that exactly? Are men not allowed have feelings or what? And who said that the same doesn’t happen with women?

    NO WHERE did I say women are obligated to return a man’s romantic interest. And you are making assumptions about my life when you know nothing about me and putting word in my mouth.


    1. Then why is it bad that these women are chosing other partners? How is it hard on the guy who was attentive and caring to not have his affections returned if he had no reasonable expectation of those affections in the first place?
      You can’t have it both ways: Either he’s got nothing to complain about because he’s got no expectation beyond friendship, so he can’t be disheartened, or he’s frustrated and disheartened because he is expecting something that does not follow from the established relationship. Make up your mind.


  9. I didn’t say it was bad that women choose certain men — it is only *bad* for the guys who lose out.

    You seem to think people are robots with no emotion. Are you saying you have never been sad or disheartened that someone didn’t return your affections? Of course you have been; everyone has. There is no contradiction at all; I don’t need to reconcile anything.

    It sucks if you are rejected; there are things you can do to make that less likely; women are free to choose their partners. How are these statements in any way in conflict? They are not, clearly.

    “Or he’s frustrated and disheartened because he is expecting something that does not follow from the established relationship.” This makes no sense — relationships grow, change. Who knows what will follow exactly? You can meet someone and have an expectation; it doesn’t mean it will happen. But it doesn’t make you a bad person for wanting it to.

    You still haven’t taken back your insult. And seem to think you know whether I am in a real relationship or not.


  10. I don’t quite know where I’ve insulted you (doubting your prowess? stating that PUA groups tend to be mysoginist and silly?) but you’re long on claims, and short on proof of . . . well, any of your claims. Which you don’t even seem to be able to track at this point.

    We’ve all been sad to hear that somebody we like doesn’t like us back the same way, but like most people, I put it up to them not being attracted to me in that way rather than my lack of systemitized mysandry and inability to pull a 10 won coin out of the ears of men at the bar.

    But yeah, it is in conflict if you say that women are free to select their own partners, and now here’s a bunch of (dubious) ways to manipulate her. Manipulation and free choice aren’t good bedfellows.

    In the end, you think that being a PUA is fine, that it provides a magic way to avoid rejection (although even you admit that a good portion of how it works is by just talking to more people, increasing the number of potential partners, not reducing the number of rejections), and that there’s nothing mysoginist about saying that women can’t be trusted to communicate their own needs, desires, and wants.

    At any rate, let’s just say your seduction technique ain’t working so well today.


  11. Ha! Never said I was a PUA. Never said I had some special technique. Never said I was some player. I haven’t said half of what you assume me to be. Nor have you addressed most of my points.

    “I sincerely doubt your ‘success’ encompasses anything so rewarding” is obviously an insult. I give up. You aren’t interested in discussion but hostility.


    1. Funny, you’ve said you’ve given up multiple times, and yet . . .

      “Once I realized that people want something hard to obtain all the more, my love life improved 10-fold. And I bet any number of men would say the same thing. You are coming at this from a female perspective and that’s fine, and I respect that; but many men’s experience speaks of a different reality.”

      And you obtained this 10-fold improvement through the help of an ancient bearded Chinese master who called you “grasshopper”?

      ” have to say I think you are dead wrong about how “eye-rollingly” ridiculous some PUA stuff is. I won’t deny there is creepy stuff out there, but speaking as someone who went from useless with women to pretty good in a very short time, a lot of it works well. And I make no apologies for having had a great time as a result.

      Why should someone have to go counseling when they could simply learn a few logical truths — which we are taught not to follow — which can be essentially summed as women (and men) value what is difficult to get? The old saying, “play hard to get” could not be more correct.

      The reality — and women don’t like to hear this, but I believe it to be true — is that what women SAY they are attracted to and ARE attracted to is often very, very different. Female friends will give you the worst advice because they will tell you how they wish the world is, instead of how it actually is. The truth is that women often don’t go for the nicest or sweetest guy in the room, and are often attracted to more base, less nobles qualities. And I am not saying you have to be — or should be — an asshole to be attractive to women, but that people like a challenge. There is something behind “nice guys finish last”.

      You’re technically correct in that you’ve never formally identified yourself as a PUA, but you’re both defending and claiming to adhere to their philosophy. You’re also making fairly grand claims about your ability to obtain the affections of women, which you attribut to . . . um, well, not listening to what they say.


      1. You both make valid points to some extent, but another problem I have is with Gomushin Girl:

        You keep talking about the tricks and manipulations that guys use, but if you had read any of the latest material for PUAs, you would know that magic and fakery are outdated theories and any guy using those is doing stuff from the early 2000s. Negging and peacocking are out. Since then the emphasis has been on confidence building and radiating an aura of social savvy. New theories deal with conversational patterns to be able to draw REAL information from one’s life and presenting it in an honest, but entertaining way so as to keep conversations flowing.

        From your remarks about trickery, I don’t believe you’ve read any actual PUA material, let alone the latest material. I ask you only to read the actual products from say 2009 and later to understand that it’s not about trickery anymore, at least not the theories I follow.

        And another note that I’m sure you’ll disagree with, but: on some base unconscious level, all relationships are based on manipulation. There’s always some give and take of putting on fronts to try to seem more appealing to another. It’s only natural that people try to hide their worst aspects and flaunt their best. PUAs just seek to give themselves the best chances.

        Who knows, maybe some PUA used some material on you. Were you able to tell? Maybe you dated someone who was a PUA or had knowledge of PUA material. Would you retroactively despise this person for being a PUA, even if you really enjoyed being with that person?


        1. I’m not a particularly good target for PUA material, all things considered . . . the small amount of research that has been done says pretty much what you expect: http://www.salon.com/life/coupling/index.html?story=/mwt/feature/2011/08/25/pickup

          To recap, PUAs are likely to find success primarily with women who already hold mysogynist or sexist views themselves, and somewhat likely to succeed with women who don’t much care because they’re looking for casual sex. In other words, PUAs get women who are like them, making one more notch on the bedpost for assortative mating theory (aka, “opposites don’t attract”). They also confirm that the strategies employed were sexist and that there was a strong possibility for situations to escalate into date rape and other forms of sexual harrassment and assault.

          One more time: Actual scientists think PUAs are sexist, possibly more rape-y than average, and are only getting laid because they’re looking for self-loathing ladies.

          You fail to list any particular sources, so I’ll merely mention that the techniques that you claim are out of vogue as of the early 2000s were the subject of a great deal of media attention and presented as quite current well into the latter half of that decade, including a TV series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pickup_Artist_%28TV_series%29 ), and that Mystery himself still seems to be publishing, since his most recent book came out just last year. Just to twist the knife a little more, I’ll note that James’s beloved PT has used him as an example of a Narcissist Personality Disorder: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201106/how-spot-narcissist

          Re: Negging – I’ve been able to pull a number of articles with great ease that still promote negging as a concept, so it seems to still enjoy a resonable amount of currency among self-proclaimed PUAs. Perhaps you don’t practice it, but looking at this list:
          it seems to be a pretty popular thing. I can do the same for peacocking and other “tactics” if you’d like, but I’d much prefer not to. I feel like I need to take a bath as it is . . .

          Of course, I’d be delighted if you could point to something that wasn’t positively dripping with sexism and scorn for women (and by extension, men). I’ve just spent a bit of time wandering in the muck of the seduction websites, none of which are making PUAs seem like the kind of dudes I would want to hang out with.


          1. Well, the articles you pulled make good points, but they don’t back themselves up all that particularly well with actual evidence of what they say. And yes, I see what you mean about how many PUA still purport negging. I really wish they’d drop the practice.

            What I would like you check out are the latest “Revelation” guide by Venusian Arts. This is done by Mystery himself, but he updates his own outdated methods based on new things he’s learned. And while I don’t suppose this guide is completely devoid of sexist leanings, I do feel it’s meant to teach men to be far more sincere than older guides.

            My personal preference are the teachings of Jeremy Soul who teaches daygame and emphasizes attracting women through confidence and genuine conversation rather than negs and games. Jeremy teaches how to hold a proper polite conversation and instructs in how to pick up cues of what topics are best to talk about with a particular woman. He favours giving well-placed genuine complements over anything that sounds like an insult.

            I’ve moved to his teachings and have found I make a far better impression. And if in the end I don’t get a date, at least I don’t upset anyone with inappropriate negs.


          2. Which articles don’t back up? The PUA ones? Yes, I’d agree they don’t back anything up – that’s kind of the point. A huge chunk of PUA websites aren’t really set up to do anything except convince you that they have a secret method or unique insight to sell you stuff.
            If you’re talking about the Salon and related articles about the scientific findings, then I’m lost as to what you mean. They’re reporting a social science study that concluded that PUA tactics are only successful with a limited set of people who share values and/or temporary interest with PUAs. The articles give good but brief overviews, but you’re welcome to read the original study, which provides data.
            Again, therapy for social anxiety seems to me like a much healthier approach than relying on dating gurus of dubious ethics and efficacy. And certainly less sexist.


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s