It’s official: from now on, I’ll be using Korean-language sources on gender and sexuality here just as much as English ones.
Partially, this is simply to maintain and improve my Korean ability, which I’ve sorely neglected since starting a new job back in July. But the main reason is that not only can foreign-language commentary on any subject quickly become out of date, it also makes one reliant on the views of those Koreans fluent in English, which are not necessarily reflective of Koreans as a whole.
Consider the following by sociologist Yoshio Sugimoto for instance. He is talking about Japan, but his points are equally relevant to Korea:
Dominating in the upper echelons of society, core subcultural groups are able to control the educational curriculum, influence the mass media, and prevail in the areas of publishing and publicity. They outshine their peripheral counterparts in establishing their modes of life and expectations in the national domain and presenting their subcultures as the national culture. The samurai spirit, the kamikaze vigor, and the soul of the Yamato race, which some male groups may have as part of the dominant subculture of men, are promoted as presenting Japan’s national culture….
More generally, the slanted views of Japan’s totality tend to reproduce because writers, readers, and editors of publications on the general characteristics of Japanese society belong to the core subcultural sphere. Sharing their subcultural base, they conceptualize and hypothesize in a similar way, confirm their portrayal of Japan between themselves, and rarely seek outside confirmation….(An Introduction to Japanese Society, pp. 12-13).
And in particular:
Core subcultural groups overshadow those on the periphery in inter-cultural transactions too. Foreign visitors to Japan, who shape the images of Japan in their own countries, interact more intensely with core subcultural groups than with peripheral ones. In cultural exchange programs, Japanese who have houses, good salaries, and university educations predominate among the host families, language trainers, and introducers of Japanese culture…(p. 13)
After two years of immersing myself in (limited) English-language sources on gender and sexuality then, it’s high time to make Korean language-ones my starting point instead.
To that end, let me begin by recommending the blog PlayHolic (플레이홀릭) written by a Korean woman from Jeju called Im-ji (임지; probably not her full name). I’ve been following her on Twitter for several months now, but I confess it was only a few days ago that I first really read her tweets, my curiosity picqued by one that mentioned Talk on Sex (토크온섹스), which turned out to be a weekly podcast that she is the co-host of. At over an hour long and (not unreasonably) with no transcripts though, then those are well beyond my ability to keep up, but fortunately her blog entries aren’t. I’ve translated this recent one on Korean attitudes to contraception below.
Coming in addition to this recent post of mine on the subject, admittedly it probably provides no new information for readers of this blog, but it does at least demonstrate that reliable information about the contraceptive pill is available in Korea. Unfortunately Korean women are generally disinclined to seek that information out though, as like I explain here (and Im-ji briefly alludes to), many fear that being proactive and insistent on using contraception will make them appear sluttish to their partners, and in turn possibly their peer group.
For those reasons, I’ll be focusing in the next few weeks on finding any attempts that have been made to counter these stereotypes, and particularly by Korean celebrities and/or institutions. For the former, a good person for me to start might be former S.E.S. member Eugene (김유진), who advertised the contraceptive pill in 2006 (two examples are included below).
(I apologize in advance for any mistakes in the translation, and welcome any corrections if any readers feel it needs them)
피임에 대한 여성들의 고민 / Women’s Troubles With Contraception (20/10/2009)
피임은 인류에게 떼려야 뗄 수 없는 영원한 숙제나 마찬가지이다. 미혼은 미혼이기에, 기혼자들은 미리 세운 가족 계획에 따라 피임을 할 수밖에 없다.
Contraception is inseparable from being human: it is a perpetual problem. But while married women have to make plans about having children, unmarried women shouldn’t have children and so have no choice but to use it.
그 피임 방법이 누구나를 만족시키고, 쉽다면 행복하겠지만 안타깝게도 실제 피임은 그리 간단한 문제만은 아니다.
Everybody should use a contraceptive method that is satisfactory for them, and if it is easy to use then they will be happy. But unfortunately the reality is that choosing contraception is not a simple issue.
( Source: Naver Movies )
남녀 모두 각자가 선호하는 피임법이 있기 마련이고, 제대로 피임을 하지 않으면 불안감과 초조감에 섹스를 즐길 수 없다.
Of course, all men and women should use the contraceptive method(s) they prefer, but if they are not used properly then this can make one feel ill at ease and nervous and unable to properly enjoy sex.
아무래도 임신은 여성의 몸을 빌어 나타나기 때문에 피임에 대한 부담감은 여성이 더 크기 마련이다.
However, as it is women’s bodies that are affected by pregnancy then of course women feel more of the burden for contraception.
피임이 제대로 되지 않을 경우, 여성들은 임신에 대한 불안감 때문에 섹스에 집중하지 못한다. 또섹스가 끝나고 나서도 임신 가능성에 대한 공포감에 시달린다. 인터넷 게시판에는 임신진단시약과 사후피임약에 대한 물음이 끊이질 않는다.
If contraception is not used correctly, then women become nervous about becoming pregnant and are unable to concentrate on enjoying having sex. They are very uneasy about this possibility after having sex also. Questions about pregnancy tests and morning-after pills never cease on internet cafes and message boards.
그렇다면 여성들은 과연 피임을 제대로 하고 있을까?
How can women use contraception properly then?
산부인과 전문의들로 구성된 피임연구회가 세계피임의 날을 맞아 19~34세 여성 1,000명을 대상으로 실시한 ‘한국 여성의 피임에 대한 인식과 행태 조사’에 따르면, 2,30대 여성의 44.5%가 ‘피임은 남성이 해야 옳다’고 답했다. 오직 4.8%만이 ‘피임은 여성이 해야 한다’고 대답했다. 이는 여성들이 남성들에게 피임을 의존하고 있다는 것으로 해석해도 무방할 듯 싶다.
Gynecologists and contraception-research centers recently welcomed World Contraception Day, and according to a survey of knowledge and attitudes to contraception of 1000 Korean women aged between 19 and 34, 44.5% replied that “contraception is men’s responsibility,” but only 4.8% replied that it is women’s responsibility. In short, Korean women rely on men to provide and use contraception.
( Source: cupitee )
피임을 하지 않은 상태에서 성관계 후의 대처 방법도 ‘임신진단시약으로 임신 여부를 확인’하는 비율이 62.4%, ‘응급피임약(사후피임약)을 복용하겠다’고 답한 비율이 30.7%로 나타났다.
When those women that don’t use contraception were asked how they dealt with the possibility of becoming pregnant, 62.4% replied that they used a pregnancy test, and 30.7% replied that they used emergency contraception.
피임을 남성의 몫으로 떠넘기는 경우, 콘돔을 사용한다면 그나마 다행이다. 문제는 질외사정법 등으로 피임을 떠넘기는 경우이다. 질외사정법은 엄밀히 이야기하면 올바른 피임 방법이라 할 수 없다. 질외사정은 질 내 사정에 비해 임신 가능성이 줄어들 순 있지만 사정 이전에 이미 정자가 일부 정액에 섞여 분비되므로 엄밀한 의미에서는 피임법이라 부를 수 없다.
In the case of men fulfilling their portion of a couple’s responsibility to use contraception, it is lucky [for women] if they use condoms. Those that use the withdrawal method will have problems though, as it is not a precise method. Of course, if the man does not ejaculate into the woman’s vagina then the possibility of becoming pregnant is lowered, but sperm and semen can still mix and be secreted before a man ejaculates.
가장 많은 연인들이 이용하는 피임법이 콘돔이다. 간편하고, 몸에 무리가 가지 않는 방법이기 때문이다. 그러나 그 이질감 때문에 남성들은 물론 여성들 중 일부도 콘돔 사용을 꺼려하기도 한다.
By far, Korean lovers’ preferred choice of contraception is the condom. It is convenient and does not place a burden on the body. However, because of the reduced feeling many men and also some women don’t like to use it.
그럴 때 선택할 수 있는 피임법이 먹는 피임약이다.
In that case, one alternative is the contraceptive pill.
( Source: Encyber )
그러나 우리나라에서 먹는 피임약은 유달리 그 편견의 정도가 심하다. 체중을 증가시키거나 불임에 이를 수 있다는 오해가 팽배하기 때문이다.
However, in Korea the contraceptive pill has an exceptionally bad reputation. Rumors and misunderstandings about it have spread easily, such as it increasing your weight and causing sterility.
먹는 피임약은 임신을 가능하게 하는 호르몬인 에스트로겐과 프로게스테론을 통해 여성의 배란 및 생리를 조절하는 약이다. 피임 실패율이 낮고 콘돔처럼 성감을 떨어뜨리지 않기 때문에 잦은 성관계를 갖는 연인이나 부부에게 적합한 피임법이다.
[But] through the hormones estrogen and progesterone, the contraceptive pill is a medicine that can control when you ovulate and have your period. It also has a lower failure rate than the condom, and doesn’t reduce sexual feeling. For these reasons, it is particularly appropriate for lovers who often have sex and for married couples.
살이 찌거나 여드름이 나는 등의 부작용 등은 초창기 피임약에서 나타났던 증상이나 최근 저용량 피임약들이 도입되면서 이런 부작용들을 해결하고 있다.
It is true that first generation contraceptive pills did have the side effects of causing women to gain weight and cause acne, but those have been resolved in more recent versions by lowering the dosages.
먹는 피임약은 다른 피임법과 마찬가지로 사용을 중단하면 바로 임신 능력이 회복된다. 장기 여행 등으로 피임약을 복용해 본 여성이라면 약을 먹지 않을 경우, 바로 생리가 찾아오는 것을 경험해봤을 것이다.
Like other contraceptive methods, as soon as you stop using the contraceptive pill your fertility recovers. Women who have gone on extended trips and stop taking the pill have reported that their period returned quickly.
또 먹는 피임약이 호르몬을 조절하기 때문에 막연하게 나쁘다는 이미지가 있는데, 먹는 피임약은 전부 용해되며, 복용하지 않을 땐 체내에 그 성분이 남아 있지 않기 때문에 영향을 미치지 않는 걸로 알려져 있다.
Because the contraceptive pill works by controlling one’s hormones, then it has a vague, bad image in Korea. But as the contents of the pill are completely absorbed into the body when you take it, then there are no lingering effects if you decide to stop using it.
특히 국내에 최근 출시된 야즈는 기존 먹는 피임약이 21일간 복용하면, 7일간 쉬었던 데 비해 24일간 복용하고 4일은 위약을 복용하는 세계최초의 24/4 용법 방식으로 체내 호르몬 변화의 폭을 감소시켜 전체 생리주기 동안 더 안정된 호르몬 수준을 유지하는 것으로 나타났다.
In particular, a new contraceptive pill called Yaz has been released, and this is the first in the world which you can take for 24 days and have a 4 day break, unlike the standard 21 days and 7 days respectively. This change means that your hormone levels don’t fluctuate so much when you have your period.
임신은 비록 여자가 하는 것이지만 그 과정에 이르기까지에는 남녀 모두가 공동의 역할과 책임이 있다. 그렇기 때문에 피임은 남자의 몫이 아닌 여성과 남성이 함께 챙겨야 하는 당연한 책임이다. 여자가 적극적으로 피임을 하는 것에 대해 주변의 시선을 신경 쓸 필요가 없다는 이야기이다. 자기 몸의 주체는 자신이 되어야 하고, 여성이 먼저 나서서 자신의 몸에 맞는 피임법을 찾는 것이 그 주체가 되는 첫걸음이다.
Even if getting pregnant is only the lot of women, as that process involves both men and women then both have a responsibility to use contraception: not just men. And you should not care about what other people think of you for being proactive and responsible about it: your body is your own, and so the first step is to find the right birth control method for you.
피임을 상대 남성에게만 맡겨두는 것이 아니라 스스로 자신의 몸에 맞는 피임법을 찾고, 성생활 역시 불안감 없이 즐기는 것이 자기 몸을 사랑하는 방법이 될 것이다.
Contraception is not the sole responsibility of men, and finding what method is most appropriate for your bodies and best able to allow you to enjoy your sex life comfortably and safely is something both partners have to do for each other (End).
( Source: cupitee )
One very mild criticism I have of the above is that, like the Korean author of the last translation I provided, Im-ji is quite positive about a new form of contraceptive pill called Yaz (야즈), but which as a commenter here has pointed out, is increasingly viewed as too dangerous by Western consumers, and is the subject of numerous lawsuits. Perhaps this information is simply not available in Korean yet?
In line with my new modus operandi, I’ll try to find that out myself this weekend…starting by asking Im-ji directly!
(For all posts in the Korean Sources on Sexuality and Gender series, see here)
The Grand Narrative 
The author really should have reconciled
“바로 생리가 찾아오는 것을 경험해봤을 것이다”
with
“생리주기 동안 더 안정된 호르몬 수준을 유지하는 것으로 나타났다”
Now I have not in my many years of being male experienced menstruation, so I’m no expert. But I’m quite certain that only certain types of oral contraceptives interrupt menstruation. The text implicitly acknowledges this with the conflicting text, but it seems the author failed to mention the rather important distinction between types of oral contraceptives.
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All oral contraceptives interrupt menstruation…the “period” you get during the placebo week isn’t a real period, just hormone withdrawal bleeding. But yeah, the author seems to be misinformed because 1) The whole point of oral contraceptives is to halt ovulation (Unless by 조절 she means “stop” and not “control” or “regulate”) and 2) You ARE protected during the placebo week, which is the same as not taking anything for a week! It’s when you go longer than a week (or four days with Yaz, I guess), i.e. when you fail to start the next round, that you run into problems.
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Thanks for that: even though my wife was on the pill for several years before we decided to have our first child, even I didn’t know that it wasn’t a real period, or that women were still protected during the placebo week.
But surely the latter is a little academic though, as women can’t get pregnant at the opposite end of their cycle to when they’re ovulating, and sperm can’t survive in the womb long enough to still be there once that ovulation point comes round again?
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That first section: “피임은 인류에게 떼려야 뗄 수 없는 영원한 숙제나 마찬가지이다. 미혼은 미혼이기에, 기혼자들은 미리 세운 가족 계획에 따라 피임을 할 수밖에 없다.”
I think you might have it somewhat backwards…that second sentence means something like “Neither the unmarried nor the married can escape having to contracept — the unmarried because they are not yet married, and the married because they need to adhere to their family plans.” By “가족 계획” it means “limiting the number of children.”
Remember how in 너는 내 운명, Crazy Mother-in-Law told the honeymooning 새벽 to “be careful” because she “didn’t want to be a grandmother yet”? EWW. Boundaries, anyone?
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Yes, I think you’re right. Sorry if this sounds lazy and ungrateful of me though, but I think I’ll keep the text the same, as – half an hour before bed and all – I confess that I’m just too tired to copy and paste your version there, and then copy and paste my original in this comment (for the sake of reference).
I don’t remember that scene from 너는 내 운명, but I can definitely believe that it was in there…and just about every Korean movie really! As it happens, I’m planning to watch that again and review it here sometime soon, so I’ll make sure to keep an eye out for it.
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Looks interesting – I’ll definitely be reading it. Is the podcast hard to understand, though? I saw “woman from Jeju” and thought “unintelligible.”
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Better now, but at work I’m afraid! Before I get home and properly reply to the rest of the comments for this post though, I can assure you that I detected no trace of an (unintelligable) Jeju accent in Im-ji’s voice though, although naturally my wife could. But I find the length a little daunting personally.
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Sorry, suffering from terrible cold today (again). Will try to reply to everyone tomorrow!
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Still very sick…grrr, figured going to bed at 8:15(!) last night would have made it better, not WORSE!
Normal blogging to return as soon as I’m up for it.
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“Even if getting pregnant is only the lot of women, as that process involves both men and women then both have a responsibility to use contraception: not just men.”
Repeating what is accepted as the proper thing to say rather than speaking the truth.
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And what is “the truth” exactly?
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Truth is the initial reaction to putting something other than the penis into the vagina causes the male to lose interest. That natural reaction combined with the fact that people are more likely in danger of unwanted pregnancies tend to not have their own apartment, steady job, parents on watch, etc..are going to be having sex on a whim in an odd setting. It’s more important for the male to have condom at ready. And since the male is more aggressive it becomes more of his responsibility to prevent pregnancy.
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Sorry, but I have no idea what you mean by that.
As for the rest, I’m afraid I completely disagree. Regardless of if people who fear unwanted pregnancies are more likely to have sexual encounters “on a whim in an odd setting” and/or “the male is more aggressive,” neither release the women from any responsibility. Moreover, in fact I’d argue the exact opposite for the cases you describe, both because the consequences of an unwarranted pregnancy are much greater for the woman, and because if a man is more aggressive and more inclined to forgo using a condom, then it behooves the woman to make darn sure that he does (or that she at least use an alternative like the pill).
(Apologies for any typos in this; bad computer at work)
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Amazing! I didn’t realize that being employed, having my own apartment, and my parents being thousands of kilometers meant I was at less risk of pregnancy ! Fabulous! Although I have to say, I’m a little sad to hear this condition means I won’t be having that spur of the moment joust in the tiny little closet under my stairs. . . . that would’ve been hot.
James, perhaps they meant to write that the man loses interest *in everything else* once something goes into a vagina other than a penis? I’m pretty sure I could attract some male attention by putting things up there . . .
Sorry, feeling snarky today^^
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LOL…no need to ever apologize for being snarky here Gomushin Girl, especially when you give “misguided” commenters the drubbing they deserve in the process!
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GG,
Good drubbing indeed, as Mr. Turnball asserts, highly “misguided” folk deserve more such righteous snarkiness, despite the western phallic meta-meme. Vive la différence?!
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What, jealous that at least h&t had at least one comment that made enough sense to draft a retort? Don’t worry, eventually you’ll string enough nouns and verbs together to make an almost coherent sentence, just like monkeys at typewriters will eventually produce the works of Shakespeare.
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In general I don’t think young people will ever agree with taking a daily pill, or any pill. Most people believe it is unhealthy. Many also believe they will somehow simply never need it. It is much easier to convince an 18 year-old female to carry a condom than to take a daily pill. No one enjoys the thought of a condom or cream or an IUD, or anything but a penis in the vagina during sexual intercourse. It may seem that the pill is the miracle solution to removing all objects but we find that is not the case. People do not want the pilll, it makes them feel too much like a machine.
I say convincing the male to use a condom is your best bet but it’s more likely you’ll have to hope for good parenting.
The understanding of actions and consequences.
“I didn’t realize that being employed, having my own apartment, and my parents being thousands of kilometers meant I was at less risk of pregnancy!”
I’d say in general you probably are at a lower risk. It means you’ve gone out into the world and are more aware of yourself, and more responsible than the opposite.
What is wrong with the world that a man and woman can not have sex without contraception? Isn’t that what we were meant to do? We live in a world where people can give birth in middle school. How did that happen? Why not graduate college at 15? Why is ‘teenage pregnancy” a problem? Perhaps if the ability of our body to reproduce was more in synch with our relationship to obtaining independence we wouldn’t have as many unwanted pregnancies. Isn’t that more like your situation?
“Regardless of if people who fear unwanted pregnancies are more likely to have sexual encounters “on a whim in an odd setting” and/or “the male is more aggressive,” neither release the women from any responsibility.”
It’s not a matter of releasing responsibility, it’s human behaviour. Generally men are supposed to take care of the family and that translates back into having sex as a teenager.
I don’t really care about 26 year-olds fucking around. At that point it’s just an abortion badge of honor over coffee at Starbucks or some silly article in a fashion magazine.
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You feel like having a go Gomushin Girl? I officially don’t have the time or inclination to deal with his drivel any more.
Lest that sound too harsh to any readers though, let me refer you to this gem.
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Aw, why the hell not! More fun than drafting up the latest conference notes . . .
Ok, HT, I’m going to try to reduce your ramblings to coherent (if not logical arguments) . . let me know if I’ve mis-interpreted you:
Claim 1) Birth control (and daily oral medications) is mechanizing and something humans are unwilling to engage in.
Claim 2) Teenaged (Korean?) girls can be persuaded to always carry condoms.
Claim 3) Contraception sucks, and people don’t like it.
Claim 4) Contraception is not necessary, and we should just relax and let nature take its course.
Claim 5) Men should take care of their families, and can do so from the age they can successfully reproduce.
As far as claim one . . . well, oral contraception is used by 100 million women worldwide, 12 million in the US. It is 99% effective with perfect use, but most studies suggest that in our imperfect world its actuall success rate is (drum roll, please!) . . . 93%! That’s a mere 6% deviation rate from perfect use, which is pretty damn awesome. So apparently most women don’t feel like it’s a big deal to take a tiny little pill once a day. We’re not even counting other oral medications that people have to take daily. Seriously, there are people who will take completely non-essential vitamin supplements that are gigantic horse pills. If you can brush your teeth (and I hope we all do!) or remember your daily omega 3, you can manage the pill.
Claim 2) Teenage girls are better off carrying condoms. Oh, please forgive me while I snicker, giggle, and eventually fall over in a particularly bitter bout of hilarity. Sexism in Korean society means a pretty round of condemnation for any woman caught hauling her own condoms. I mean, it’d be nice and empowering perhaps, but utterly unlikely. Besides, if we can’t be trusted to take a freakin’ pill once a day, how on earth are we going to remember to carry a little foil packet around? (especially in light of your hatred of anything coming between penal and vaginal epidermous!)
Claim 3) Birth control sucks. No, rather, pregnancy when you’re not thrilled about having a baby sucks. Let’s ignore bizzare claims of yours about IUDs (which, like the birth control pill, are essentially undetectable by the male partner, and pretty much by the female partner once it’s been implanted) and presumably Depo-provera shots, etc. I’m pretty sure most couples who are not ready to have a baby would dissagree with you here, and would rather be able to enjoy sex without worrying about pregnancy. Let’s not project your own bizzare hangups about sex onto everybody else, ok?
Claim 4) Birth control is unecessary. Oy vey! Just because men and women are capeable of reproduction as of puberty doesn’t mean they’re physically or mentally ready for such an exercise. And I’m pretty sure that there are very few 15 year old guys able to provide financial support to their knocked-up girlfriends. The only people who could possibly commit to the idea of women getting pregnant whenever a spare sperm meet an ova are pretty much unregenerate sexists, harkening back to a much darker age. You are, in your own, special, semi-coherent way arguing for just such a world.
Claim 5) Men are responsible for families, and can do so from when they can sexually reproduce. Perhaps some of them, but mostly they’re pretty lousy at it. I’d sure rather pop a pill once a day than take a chance on my 14 year old loverboy being able to take care of me. We ain’t happy hunter-gatherers anymore (special note: In such societies, women actually produce more food, making it pretty much the opposite of your argument.) Men and women can both earn money and take physical and emotional care of their families, but only if they’re in a position to do so. In modern life, that pretty much excludes the underage and undereducated, who cannot provide for themselves, let alone for a spouse and kid. Nice try, but I think that kind of life is only feasable if you’re living in the stone age. Then again, from your remarks, you might be.
And finally, you seem to lack fundamental understanding of exactly how pregnancy and pregnancy prevention work, so let me explain to you again:
Me having a job, an apartment, and financial independence doesn’t mean I’m less likely to get pregnant. So long as I have a working uterus and ovaries, the chances of my getting pregnant are pretty much the same as any other fertile woman on earth when sperm wiggles its merry way up towards my fallopian tubes. That’s biology.
My having these accessories of independence may in fact make me less likely to engage in risky sexual behavoir. Or, in fact, it may equip me with the wherwithal to engage in more sex away from supervisory familial eyes and with my own handy bachelorette pad. In either case, that’s social behavoir, and distinct from biology. Get it?
Now, please do continue to amuse me by explaining what the destruction of national flags has to do with contraception!
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You say: “Nice try, but I think that kind of life is only feasable if you’re living in the stone age. Then again, from your remarks, you might be.”
Ah, so your words are from the age of righteous indignation? How can one make any claims about anything without imposing what one perceives is the “correct” way? Which way is the real way?
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Silly nonsense..Let’s get it all in a numbered list so we can understand it properly. Perhaps we should hire judges and create policies. I am not trying to win a bobsled challenge. I have no time for your childish game. This is a conversation.
A human is, and it has all it needs. It doesn’t need to become something. It doesn’t need to do anything. It doesn’t need a pill or anything else to control its reproduction or anything else. The last thing a child or teenager needs is a confused adult going on about senseless numbers that the adult itself does not understand. The human – especially, the teenager – can rely on its mind to solve problems. There is nothing wrong with becoming pregnant, and there is nothing odd with not wanting a child during pregnancy. What is the problem? The world goes on. Contraception, abortion, murder..whatever, we are never going to stop sex without contraception. We use our minds to stop pregnancy.
Note: Korea is a place name and all the people that live in that place are called Korean- that is the only difference between Koreans and everyone else
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But sweetheart, for it to be a conversation, you’d have to make sense. Reading your posts (and those of RSF) is like trying to understand the rantings of the mentally unstable man I pass everyday on my way to work – you can try, and occasionally a few of the words might appear to form a thought, but it won’t be coherent, and you certainly can’t argue with them. My list was an attempt to clarify what, very frankly, *didn’t make sense* by giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you were trying, but failing, to make a reasoned argument.
I’ll take that as my lesson for today, and vow from now on not to debate people withouth the capacity to respond rationally, logically, or (especially problematic when dealing with you!) coherently.
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Some of the things you wrote do not make sense but I am able to read your responses and get a generally understanding of your position and then respond. If I focus my energy on scrutinizing your responses for errors I will lose what I consider to be the point of our discussion.
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that’s more than I can do with yours . . . I can’t even tell that you have a point!
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Sorry, you can’t understand the difference between a piece of paper and a living creature. Do you also think their should be laws against destroying national flags?
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“there”
Well, laws banning the destruction of national flags?
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“Now, please do continue to amuse me by explaining what the destruction of national flags has to do with contraception!”
Slow down and read.
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