Why Korean Girls Don’t Say No: Contraception Commercials, Condom Use, and Double Standards in South Korea
Can a 22-year old Korean woman really be ignorant of the contraceptive pill? In this day and age? And if not…then why would she lie about it?
The woman in question is Kim So-mi (김소미), a student at Seoul National University who appeared in one of Korea’s first television commercials for the pill after a ban on them was lifted in 2006, and who claimed that “she only found out about the pill when she was doing the shoot” (정작 김씨는 광고를 찍으면서 피임약에 대해 처음으로 알게 됐다고 털어놨다). Putting aside for a moment the fact that that was rather a strange time to discover what one was appearing in a commercial for, then at first glance her claim appears reasonable: based on my own and especially female friends’ (Korean and Western) experiences and discussions with them, there are indeed a great many otherwise smart and sophisticated 20 and 30-something Korean women who are shockingly ignorant of sexual matters. And, as I explain here, knowledge of contraceptive methods and healthy attitudes to sex tend not to be suddenly and miraculously acquired upon their wedding nights either.
On the other hand, despite oft-cited taboos against premarital sex in Korea, in the most recent comprehensive survey that I’m aware of (PDF here) not only did over half of Korean 18-30 year-olds report having had sex before marriage (albeit with large differences between the sexes, as I’ll discuss), but even recent celebrities’ bulging waistlines at weddings are not creating the scandal that they used to, which is very surprising considering the high moral standards that Korean female celebrities especially are normally held to. Not only do those taboos belie a large amount of premarital sex in practice then, arguably this is increasingly publicly tolerated too, albeit with strong and enduring double-standards and still quite some way to go before any couples can be open about it as I’ll explain.
But given that environment, then it is not unreasonable to question a 22 year-old woman’s complete ignorance of the very existence of the pill, particularly someone whose supposed intelligence is emphasized throughout the commercial (“똑똑하다” in the stillshot above means “smart”), the pharmaceutical company Organon International making sure to not only make mention of the prestigious university she attends, and presenting a rather more bookish-looking version of her in the commercial below than the stillshot would suggest, but also to stress that taking responsibility for one’s own contraception was “the smart way to do love”, which sounds only slightly less strange and forced a choice of words in the original Korean – 좋은 사랑을 하려면 진짜 똑똑해야 한다고 생각해요 – than it does in English (update: sorry, but the video has since been deleted, and that was the only one I could find).
In this stress on her intelligence, I think the commercial would be somewhat endearing to most long-term expats, for it is really quintessentially Korean: can you imagine the pill being advertised in any Western country using a rather nerdish-looking undergraduate from an elite university? As such, it reminds me also of early Korean commercials for deodorants (unfortunately too old for me to find a video of), which seemed to devote more attention to motherly figures dispensing advice to daughters on how and why to use it rather than on their supposed benefits for attracting the opposite sex, or alternatively how Korean blind date shows will often feature the blind-date chooser’s parents also, not merely to watch in the audience but as integral parts of the show. All of which are healthy reminders that while Korea appears to be very similar to Western countries on the surface – they use contraception, they wear deodorant (albeit only in the summer), they have dating programs…and so on – in reality the narratives and social codes operating behind most things are sometimes very different.
But this veneer of modernity, however, definitely has its dark sides. Fellow blogger and writer Gord Sellar, for instance (whom I think I take the phrase “veneer of modernity” from), recently briefly mentions in passing how the mere trappings of a modern driving system – laws, speed cameras, sidewalks, traffic police, and so on – without the backdrop of a well-developed driving ethos as it were produces something quite unlike (and rather more dangerous than) the experience of driving in most developed countries. And in this particular case, a mere veneer of modern, rational notions of sexuality becomes much less benign when a woman like Kim So-mi not only feels compelled to defend her appearance in a commercial for the pill, but also by choosing to do so not by pointing out how empowering it genuinely is to women but rather – through claiming ignorance of what it even was – by distancing herself from the sexually-active women who would be aware of it and use it. Moreover, her preceding statement that she “had nothing to feel guilty about” – 마음에 찔리는 일을 하는 것도 아니라고 생각한다 – is, while true, someone at odds with that sentiment, and merely serves to highlights the forced nature of her feigned ignorance all the more.
(In passing, I wonder how that relates – if at all – to Schering’s advertisements for the pill which feature Western celebrity lookalikes rather than Koreans. That’s supposedly Catherine Zeta-Jones on the above and left for instance (source), and others in the series can be found here, here, and here)
I could also mention that claiming complete ignorance of the pill somewhat compromises her credibility as a role model, which may well be why she hasn’t appeared in any further commercials for Organon International since, but you get the idea. And no, I don’t think I’m making too much of this one example, for it is this theme of relinquishing of sexual responsibility for the sake of saving face by unmarried Korean women that strongly comes across from the results of the aforementioned survey on condom use in Korea, and which I’ll discuss for the remainder of this post. But before I do, I should at the very least mention and link to three much more serious cases where decidedly archaic Korean attitudes to women’s sexuality caused genuine harm: first, that of Baek Ji-young (백지영) of course, as I briefly discuss here; next, demonstrating that that still has a great deal of resonance even eight years later, the case of Korean singer Ivy (아이비), whose career was significantly harmed by the merest suggestion of sexual impropriety earlier this year (and despite the rumors ultimately being proved false); and finally and even more alarmingly, that of Ok So-ri (옥소리), who will soon be going to jail for two years for adultery, despite it being common knowledge that tens if not hundreds of thousands of Korean men commit adultery every day. For more on that, see here, here and here.
(Update 1: I couldn’t find any information about what Organon thought of Kim So-mi’s comments, but I did find more here about the selection process for the commercial)
(Update 2: Ok So-ri ultimately received a six-month suspended jail sentence. For more on the final verdict, see here, here, and here)
But first, let me address the question of why commercials for condoms specifically were allowed as early as 2004, despite the ban on commercials for contraceptives in general not being lifted until 2006 like I said. According to this source from just before the Organon commercial appeared, the reason is that those condom commercials were only used:
…as part of a public campaign promoting condom use, pushed by the Korea Federation for HIV/AIDS Prevention (KAIDS).
Recently, however, condom manufacturers such as Unidus have been promoting their products on cable television networks and the Internet, and are considering spreading the advertisements to national television.
Although the authorities have allowed television commercials for sex-related products, it remains to be seen whether the bigger television broadcasters accept the advertisements, with concerns that the commercials for condoms and contraceptives might offend viewers
This caused quite a bit of confusion and consternation amongst Korean observers at the time, and any Korean readers among you might be interested in this Korean blogger’s take on events that I’ve just found as I type this, but for the sake of getting this post up sooner rather than later I’ll have to skip translating it for non-Korean readers for now sorry (but I’m still happy to do so; just give me a buzz).
Some Reliable Statistics on Premarital Sex in South Korea (for a change)
( Source )
For now though, let’s move onto the results of the survey (and for a more sociological discussion of the subject, see here and here). While it is possibly a little dated (the data-gathering was conducted in 2003), given its rigorous methodology and so on then I’d give much more credence to its results than, say, headline-grabbing ones in newspapers like this vacuous one from today (but still, thanks to ROK Drop for it, and see here for Robert Neff’s take on it at The Marmot’s Hole) or this one conducted by a television station last year. It also happens to be very short and readable, and so if you’ve read this far into the post then I highly recommend spending an extra ten minutes reading it for yourself, although I will do my best to present and analyze the most important results here. To start then:
- 27% of men 7.8% of women had sex before the age of 18
- “Contrary to the reported Korean situation, there are no significant gender differences in the rate of premarital sex and age at first intercourse compared to that in many other liberal, developed societies.”
- “Compared to other [developed] societies, although there are fewer sexually experienced youths under 18 in Korea, there has nevertheless been an increase in premarital sex and a substantial lowering of the age at first sexual intercourse….the rate for females has risen more rapidly than that for males.”
Already you’ll notice potential issues of over and under-reporting by men and women respectively throughout the survey, although in Korea in particular there is likely to be much more to the disparities than mere inflated egos and pretenses of feminine virtue as we’ll soon see. As for those figures for teenage sex specifically, they are clearly reason in themselves for Koreans to have a big rethink about just how effective their policy of sticking their heads in the sand has been so far: not only are they increasingly comparable to those for Westerners over time, odds are that Westerners at least will have received more than the handful of hours in front of a fifteen year-old video that counts for sex education in Korea (for students lucky enough to be living in Seoul that is). They also wouldn’t have to contend with pharmacists refusing to sell them condoms or any other other contraceptives either, nor internet portal sites refusing to allow them to conduct a mere internet search for information about how to use and buy condoms without presenting proof (via their national id number) that they’re over 18.
For an excellent discussion of public attitudes to teenage sexuality in the 1990s that provide a backdrop to those results, I highly recommend reading this post at Gusts of Popular Feeling, and it’s clear that little has changed over a decade later. Moreover, it’s just a thought, but in the almost complete absence of any information or adults talking to them about sex, then I invite readers to speculate about just whom exactly might be providing young Koreans with most of their sexual role models instead:
( Source )
- In December 2005, there had been 3,829 cumulative reported cases of HIV/AIDS, of which males accounted for 90.7%. Of the new HIV infections among Korean women in 2004, all were attributed to heterosexual contact.
By August this year, the total had risen to 5717, with almost exactly the same proportions of men to women. The survey notes that with such relatively low numbers, if women “were able to ensure that their partners use condoms consistently and properly, [then] HIV/AIDS would be prevented effectively.” They’re not, as we shall see, but on the positive side it should be noted that the majority of Koreans no longer see HIV/AIDS as a mere foreign, gay disease that doesn’t affect them.
- According to previous research, mostly conducted in the five years before this survey, “the percentage of consistent condom use among young people as well as in the general population was relatively lower than in other countries. It was found that only 18.6% of never married, sexually active young people aged 18-29 used condoms consistently…[and]…the reported condom use at first sexual intercourse was 18.7% for men and 13.4% for women. The reported condom use of high school students was much lower at 10%.”
Personally, I’m surprised that that last figure was even as high as 10%, given that vending machines in public toilets and from older friends would be about the only place high school students would obtain them. But of greater note already, albeit not a hugely significant statistical difference in this particular case, is the I think counter-intuitive finding (to Westerners) that more men than women reported using condoms the first time they had sex. Indeed, this disparity continued afterwards:
- “More men (17.3%) than women (13.6%) reported having consistent condom use with a steady partner…for other partner types, consistent condom use was less reported by women than by men. For experience with condoms, more men than women reported having used condoms.”
Why? Partially it is because Korean men are much more sexually active (or would promiscuous be a better word?):
- 50.4% of the single 19-30 year-old subjects reported having had sexual intercourse, but this disguises huge differences between men and women (67.3% and 30% respectively).
- “Men reported a higher proportion of sexual experiences with two or more multiple partners during the previous 12 months than women did (57.2% vs 41.0%).”
- “Single men were four times more likely to be [sexually] experienced than women.”
- “According to a recent study, the median age at first sexual intercourse for Korean men (21.0 years) was three years lower than that for Korean women, even though men marry, on average, later than women do….This difference may be interpreted as an indication that young men have sex with prostitutes or older experienced women. About 13% of young men age 20-29 reported that their sexual partners were prostitutes.”
And this in turn led to them being much more confident and knowledgeable about using them than Korean women:
( Source )
- “Men were more likely to agree somewhat or completely that condoms protected against HIV and other STDs.”
- “Compared with women…men reported a higher level of self-efficacy in condom use when they were drunken.”
But this is of course only half the story, and somewhat of a chicken before the…er…egg one at that. For if you haven’t guessed already, the survey concludes that:
…these gender differences in sexual initiation and experience can be explained by strong, gender-based, double standards and values in the traditional culture. Single women in Korea are still expected to be passive and virgins at marriage. Although Korean women’s level of education and participation in the labor force has rapidly risen (albeit the latter still at the lowest levels in the OECD – James), the imposed attitudes on their expected social roles have not dramatically changed yet. Korean society still places emphasis on women’s virginity at marriage and women are supposed to be initiated into sex by their husbands.
And thus:
Premarital sex may be a more serious concern to women because of their vulnerability….young sexually experienced females reported that they had been pressured by their boyfriends or other men to have sex as a proof of their love and been forced not to use a condom at first intercourse.
Which makes Durex’s depiction on the right of its…er…penetration of the Korean market in August this year (source) not a particularly accurate reflection of current Korean sexual mores, and unfortunately the women in it are less likely to be supposed role models as chosen simply because every public event in Korea requires scantily-clad females known as “narrator models.” More seriously though, the survey clears up a great deal of almost instinctive confusion I and I think many readers would have had recently over newspaper headlines such as “Women Inactive in Preventing Unwanted Pregnancy,” and “Korean Women Say Birth Control is Men’s Responsibility“, although I must confess that I never expected to be so, well…true, especially as my female Korean friends have all stated that they have to contend with Korean men often refusing to wear condoms, which unfortunately probably says much more about my choice of Korean female friends than it does of Korean men and women as a whole.
But I’m not merely covering all my bases when I say that it’s not all doom and gloom for Korean men and (especially) women, for I have seen teenage sex education centers, for instance, pop up around Busan since I first moved here, and, just like so many other Korean issues on which Koreans only appear to be unanimous and monolithic in their opinions to non-Korean speakers, the notion that contraception is solely a man’s responsibility is hardly a universally accepted and uncontested notion amongst young Koreans especially, as this blog post (for one) demonstrates (again, let me know if you’d like a translation). Moreover, and to put this post and myself to bed, while I may occasionally sound like a broken record when I point out this next (but someone has to), I think I’ve more than adequately demonstrated that increasingly sexual images of women in commercials and advertisements in recent years can and are having an effect on these double-standards also. Combined with knowledge that the English-language media and books on Korea especially tend to have a considerable lag behind trends in Korea then, it’s going to be very interesting to see the results of any similar survey in the future. Watch this space.
( Korean women taking responsibility for contraception…only in the movies? Source )
I’ll be brief: interesting and well-done. Thanks for this and for the other posts I still need to read.
Sex…the Ryugyong Hotel of South Korea.
Brian, thanks!
Mark, sorry, but I don’t get it. I am only half way into my first coffee though…
Nice post! Musthave taken a bit of time to write! What’s with the Wondergirls appearing just before the AIDS section? Are you saying they encourage risky behavoir?
Stig, thanks, but no, not exactly. If you read the section just before rather than after the picture, you’ll see that I’m arguing that in the absence of adults talking about to young Koreans about sex and information being unavailable on the internet or at school, then groups like the Wondergirls are correspondingly more important as sexual role models for them.
James, the Ryugyong Hotel in Pyongyang dominates the city…you can’t ignore it. However, the North Koreans amazingly do! It isn’t in the paintings or stamps, etc., and tour guides refuse to acknowledge its existence.
Kinda like South Korea’s promiscuity.
Ah…that’s quite a good analogy really. I did recall the name after I
finished my second coffeeposted my reply earlier, but I didn’t realize that it wasn’t represented in stamps and paintings and so on.Coffee works wonders. :lol:
Great post as usual… works well with another post (at this here URL: http://culturebook.livejournal.com/22769.html) I was reading about a “crying starfish” tendency among Korean women. This learned (or unlearned, depending on how you look at it) passivity is much more understandable in the context you’ve given here, first of actual inexperience and second, of the necessity to continue to act inexperienced regardless of actual experience or desire.
So I suppose, as you seem to sort of argue, the only answer is even filthier and more suggestive advertisements!
;-)
Corroborating evidence: I have been dating a woman from Seoul for about 6 months now. She was a 28 year old virgin when we met. Her “sex ed.” was pretty close to zero – I’m not exagerrating – like understanding the basic mechanics of sex. It’s been an interesting experience for me (28 yr old American) – I like to think I’m championing women’s rights and personal freedom….. Helping her to enjoy life more (not just sex). Convincing her to take the pill took months – of course now she understands its (obvious to westerners?) advantages.
It is almost disturbing how ignorant the Koreans I’m around seem to be (despite their devotion to their studies). These folks are, to my understanding, upper middle class and upper class – people who in western culture are typically far more educated and have had diverse experiences. It’s just strange….
Have you seen the “Hug AIDS” advertisement – I get to watch it on the bus about 4 times a day. I don’t speak Korean but the idea seems pretty clear. Koreans are afraid of people with AIDS – Wasn’t that like 20 years ago?
“Helping her enjoy life” that is laughable! Being a virgin (esp. with how old she was) is wonderful and amazing; you think you are “championing women’s rights” by turning her into a slut? Seriously, you make me sick.
Actually, Sonam was pretty clear that “he was helping her enjoy life” in more ways than just sexually. Moreover, persuading her to go on the pill and have sex with him hardly makes him a fiend either, let alone her a “slut”.
Well, though I doubt he’s turning her into a slut, in any case, she’s learning about contraception and sex education.
Indeed Jaemin. But anybody who says being a virgin is “wonderful and amazing” and a woman that has sex with 1 (rather nice-sounding) guy is a “slut” shouldn’t have any more virtual ink spilt on them.
And how would you react if that was a man?
What happened to gender equality?
That comment was completely uncalled for. Especially in 2011.
I think sonam did her a huge favor.
As a Korean having grown up in the western civilization and now residing in Canada, I really can’t imagine what my life would be like if I didn’t know what saving a horse and riding a cowboy meant. :)
Alas, the “Save a Horse” part of the phrase didn’t make it across the Pacific when I was growing up in New Zealand. But I knew “Ride a Cowboy” of course, so I eventually figured it out…
I would like to modify the statement to read:
“… if I didn’t know what saving a horse and riding a cowboy meant and feels like. :)”
Yes: unlike version 1, that edited one really does hit the spot… :D
Comments like these are really disturbing…
“It is almost disturbing how ignorant the Koreans I’m around seem to be (despite their devotion to their studies).” Are you kidding me? You getting it in with a Korean girl is nothing close to “championing women’s rights and personal freedom.”
Abstinence is the only 100% effective way to prevent the spread of STDs, and somehow that’s a bad thing? Learn your place. Korea isn’t a place for foreigners to bring their Western standards to. You’re the outsider, learn to accept the culture you’re a part of. This is why Koreans have so much hate for foreigners. There is such a lack of respect on your part that you view as natural. It’s your responsibility to learn what is accepted and unaccepted culturally and to abide by those rules. If you can’t agree with that, head someplace else.
As is your own comment in turn, so willing are you to blatantly ignore other replies to the comment above in your rush to criticise a White male. Namely:
- just this post alone shows evidence of many Koreans’ staggering lack of even basic knowledge about contraception and sexual matters, let alone hundreds of other posts on this blog. Just check out the “sex education” category for instance, most of which use Korean sources.
- it’s pretty clear that the original commenter meant “championing women’s rights and personal freedom” in many ways, not just (or even at all) sexually.
- saying abstinence is the only 100% effective way to prevent the STDs is uninformative and obvious. And yeah, it’s a bad thing because if people take it to heart then it would mean that they didn’t get to enjoy sex at all, when it’s perfectly safe if people are monogamous and use contraception properly.
- Koreans are having sex, regardless of what “outsiders” think about it. And it’s hardly imposing Western values on them to wish that they’d be a bit more educated about it.
If you fail to recognize the sheer lack of respect towards a foreign culture displayed in that comment, there’s no point in posting these articles attempting to “fix” something that you are most definitely not a part of. I found your article informing and well written, and there are points that I might agree with if it wasn’t presented in such a way that assumes that a lack of sex-ed is due simply to the fact that Koreans would rather ignore the fact that they are having sex to save face in their culture.
There are a lot of things I think that you as a writer could improve on, especially on the point of considering reasons behind the actions you criticize. Your writing is very eloquent, well researched, and respectively convincing, but at the same time you fringe upon disrespect in your critiques of a very prideful nation.
I think that comments like the one I replied to and blogs like yours only contribute to the miscommunication that has led to a very strongly held belief on Korea that foreigners do not belong. Look at the legislation that just passed that will cycle out all foreign English teachers in Korea within the next few years. If you want to enact these changes you advocate, I would suggest a more understanding tone and a little more respect for Korean culture. “Right” and “wrong” are very different things in different parts of the world. Your view has a place in how Korean culture should be shaped going forward, but the way you present your view makes all the difference.
I guess there’s no point in trying to educate me with your comments then either, so it’s strange how you bother. As for not being part of what I’m writing about though, with 12 years in Korea under my belt, permanent residency, a Korean wife and 2 children, and an obvious vested interest in the latter’s sex-education (and of their classmates and future boyfriends), then I put it to you that I’m just as much a part of it as you will ever be.
“Assumes”? Again, in this and numerous other posts in the sex-education category (which I doubt you’ve bothered to read) I present the findings of multiple Korean sources that say precisely that. I also don’t notice you offering any alternative explanations.
Sure: if I’d written this post now (you’re aware that it’s over 3 years old, right?), I would certainly have done it differently. I may even have spent more time “considering reasons behind the actions I criticize”, as I certainly do now. But still, it can’t have been that bad if you found it “very eloquent, well researched, and respectively convincing”, unless of course you’re just saying that in building up for yet another insult…
And there it is. If you knew the first thing about “the legislation that just passed that will cycle out all foreign English teachers in Korea”, which is actually just a reduction in the budget for foreign teachers at public schools in Seoul, then you’d be aware that “miscommunication” like mine has nothing to do with it. Also, if you had any basic common sense, you’d know that people in any country who have the belief that “foreigners do not belong” invariably have that belief well before and/or despite any actual interaction with said foreigners, and that in Korea the tabloidish, muck-raking, xenophobic media is hardly going to challenge their confirmation biases.
In the rare case that any of them are jolted out of their comfort zones by the stark truths presented in my blog however, then so be it.
Call me racist, disrespectful, and/or ignorant then, but after all that I certainly don’t have time for any further communication with someone so willfully ignorant themselves, so obviously unwilling to actually read much of what they criticize, and so self-righteous as to be completely oblivious of the racism their own comments are saturated with.
Banned.
By the way – I love that “veneer of modernity” – so true. And if the drivers here aren’t the worst I’ve ever seen…..
I agree with most of your conclusions but think there are a few problematic points along the way. A few of those…
I don’t see how “정작 김씨는 광고를 찍으면서 피임약에 대해 처음으로 알게 됐다고 털어놨다” necessarily means she only discovered what the shoot was about when she arrived. There is nothing about the sentence that forces one to interpret it to mean that she didn’t know “of” 피임약, and since no Korean speaker would assume it is even within the range of possibility that she hadn’t even heard of the stuff, the Korean speaker will thus understand the sentence to mean that she only learned how great it is after she started working with them. Ah.. come to think of it, “광고를 찍으면서” does not mean “while shooting” here, either. In this context it can just as easily, and given what they’re saying with the whole sentence much more likely, that this phrase refers to “the process of making the advertisement.” So say, for expl, she knew there existed some sort of 약 for 피임, but when they asked her if she’d do the shoot she went and learned more about it, or they educated her, or whatnot, and by the time she signed the contract she already knew more than the average Korean of either gender about 피임약.
Re this:
Again I agree with your ultimate conclusions but I think one needs to take into account that not all pre-marital sex is the same. There is a difference between just having sex and having sex with someone you are going to, or intend to, marry, and traditional/Joseon and even 20th Korea saw this as a big difference. Having sex on the premise of, and as consummation of, commitment, was the normal, socially acceptable way to have pre-marital sex. So valued was a woman’s virginity that a decent man could only sleep with her if he was ready to “take responsibility for her,” as the saying would go, and so on, because that’s what sleeping with her was supposed to imply. Fiction and non-fiction narratives (many known to me personally) are full of this kind of thinking. I know couples that decided not to have sex because they weren’t sure they were getting married, that didn’t have sex because he was going to the military and he wanted to be sure he’d come back alive before permanently “making her his,” as that would be too traumatic for her, and of couples that lived together (and obviously were having sex) before being married and it was acceptable because they were going to marry, had family approval, but couldn’t marry because maybe the girl’s elder sister wasn’t married off yet or they were both still in college but both sets of parents wanted to get them married after graduation, or one of those odd reasons. Maybe no money; whatever. Anyway, the best example I can think of all this is classical Korean prose fiction (since that’s all I ever think about). There is plenty of premarital sex in traditional Korean prose fiction (“novels”), graphic in only a few exceptions I’m afraid, but we are at least told that it is happening. The reason this fiction wasn’t thrown into the flames at Confucian book burning parties (and there were Joseon poets who did indeed call for novels to be burned for their bad influence) was because whenever there is pre-marital sex the parties always end up married. In fact you know they’re going to marry before you get to the end because they slept together. The most readily available example would be “the most classic, all time” story Chunhayng Jeon. The most “대표적” Korean story of all time and it involves “happily ever after” pre-marital sex. So it’s one thing for a celebrity to have a bulging waistline at her wedding and another for a video to surface of her having a romp with one of her producers, for example, or even to shoot a fully nude bed scene in a feature film. Not that the double standard you speak of doesn’t exist, I just don’t think there’s necessarily a big contradiction between “bulging waistlines” and “high moral standards” in this case as you’ve stated your examples.
To bother you a little more… this stuck out….
The reason all those however many Korean men committing adultery “every day” is because their wives, or the husbands of the wives they are committing adultery with, have not filed legal complaints. Adultery is only prosecutable if a spouse files charges. There are many people in Korean society who are openly “committing adultery” but their spouses (wives) aren’t taking action against them. Everyone considers Ok Sori’s husband an ass, and it seems to me the general talk is that he always blew away a lot of money, and he’s filing adultery charges against her to use that as leverage in the divorce settlement. In other words, she could give him a lot of money and then not have to go to jail. Whatever the case, this was the original idea behind the criminalization of adultery, just in the opposite direction – to protect women by giving them leverage when their husbands go off and shack up with some other woman. It has usually been women’s organizations that supported the criminalization of adultery, at least old(er) school women’s orgs, like the 한국가정법률상담소, which was quoted in this Hankyoreh article re the recent Constitutional Court decision.
Come to think of it, you almost wonder if the reason progressive, younger feminist groups want the adultery law done away with is because women are having affairs for a change. I’ve seen them argue it should be abolished because the state shouldn’t be peeking in bedrooms, etc, but can’t remember seeing them say it’s unfairly used against women or is itself sexist.
Oranckay,
sorry again for the wait, and I’d echo you when you said that “I agree with most of your conclusions but think there are a few problematic points along the way.” Well, just the one really, and that is our differing interpretations of what was written in the original article(s) about Kim So-mi only discovering what the contraceptive pill was (or not) during the shooting of the commercial. With the proviso that – not that you mention this, but I think that I should – she certainly provided a convenient “hook” for the subject of contraceptive use in Korea, which I may well have overused in the post, I did interpret the original Korean and the English translation in the newspaper article that way, and while I hate to focus on (English) semantics, and accept that you may have wanted to put your comment differently or more strongly in a comment that my blog host doesn’t allow you to edit unfortunately, you do acknowledge the possibility of my interpretation by saying that you don’t “necessarily” see how the Korean “means that she only discovered what the shoot was about when she arrived”, and also by pointing out that “광고를 찍으면서” “can just as easily” not literally mean while shooting the advertisement. Or in other words, the Korean is vague enough for both our interpretations to be valid I think.
Which brings us to the additional evidence you provide for your interpretation that “since no Korean speaker would assume it is even within the range of possibility that she hadn’t even heard of the stuff, the Korean speaker will thus understand the sentence to mean that she only learned how great it is after she started working with them.” Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that, for I have ample first-hand experience of the naivety and ignorance of all too many Korean speakers (and their friends) on even the basic biology of reproduction, let alone what types of contraception are available, what they look like, and how to use them. And, other than yourself, given the lack of commenters disagreeing with me about that point so far then I strongly suspect that most of my readers could and would probably say much the same, or at least don’t think it’s so wrong as to be sufficiently motivated to call me up on it. Even in the United States all too many women think that douching with cola is an effective contraceptive for instance, so it certainly seems within “the range of possibility” that a in a country like Korea, where sex is still such a taboo subject, that many Koreans would never have heard of the pill.
I’ve just realized that I’m possibly contradicting myself a little, for I think I argued in the post that she’s actually lying for the sake of saving face. Sigh. Regardless, having said all the above, I don’t mean to sound too harsh in my disagreement, and your interpretation may well still prove to be the more correct. I just think that, at the moment, there’s equal if not more evidence for my own.
As for your point about Ok So-ri, actually I agree with you completely. I don’t have internet access on my laptop at work and so can’t recall exactly what I said about her sorry (I cut and pasted 10 comments and am work on my replies to them in MSWord, and quickly cut and paste my replies when I get home!), but I think I was using her as an example of the effects of irrational and decidedly backward Korean attitudes to sexuality rather than of sexism and/or of the unequal application of the adultery law per se, although I accept that it may well have looked like I was.
Finally, your argument about not all pre-marital sex being the same…I more than concede your point, and have to say that I found your reply very informative. Thank you again for taking the time and effort to write it, and it certainly changes the way I will look at Korean sexuality in the future. And I must confess, although I’ll probably regret being too revealing about the workings of my blog here, I primarily included that point just to have a legitimate-sounding link to the much more widely-read DramaBeans blog, and have some of its traffic directed in my direction via the trackback. So I didn’t put enough thought into it, and you were quite correct to call me out on it (and I’m glad you did).
Thanks for the comments everyone, and sorry for taking so long (for me) to reply to them, although in my defense I’m rather tired today, have a surprising number of comments today (must be cold out there), and on top of that have a baby strapped to my back as I type this. No, really…what, you mean there’s other ways to spend Saturday nights?!!
Mark, it does indeed. And while, alas, I no longer have the time to hang out looking pretentious in my local Starbucks to drink it, I do get far more female attention than I ever did back then by taking my eldest daughter with me to buy some ground coffee to take home every weekend. Until it’s Fair Trade coffee comes in a mild or medium version though, I have to renounce all I used to stand for by only buying my favorite “Breakfast Blend” or the “Shade-grown Mexico” ones…mmm, you can really taste the shade…
RWellor, thanks, although it did indeed take me a couple of clicks to figure out what a “crying starfish” was: a bit crude perhaps, but apt.
LOL to that, and although as a heterosexual male I’m by no means averse to more of those, it is certainly possible for me to exaggerate the effects of more depictions of sexually-assertive women’s behavior in advertisements and commercials over time specifically, and concurrence doesn’t imply causation either. Having said that, something’s responsible for all the changes to women’s and men’s body images and notions of sexuality and so on I’ve seen and discussed since I first came to Korea, and given their ubiquity and their by definition attention-seeking nature, then I do think that cumulatively they’re at least as influential as changing roles in movies and dramas and so on.
Rather an overanalysis of your comment, but then you’d expect nothing less, yes? :D And by the way, good news about the conference, eh? Erm…when and where is it again? Do you remember what I said I’d give a presentation on
because I certainly don’t?Sonam,
yeah, it is a good phrase, although I’m sure I can find a much earlier reference to it either on Gord Sellar’s blog or in his comments on this blog somewhere if I take a look. By coincidence, the day after I wrote this post I saw it again on either an entirely different blog or in a newspaper (I should have made a note, sorry), which reminds me of how really good phrases ultimately tend to get overused, as I first personally noticed with commentary on the 1995 movie Strange Days and which was quite an influence on me at the time. Naturally, I was rather proud of myself for coming up with the phrase “Strange days indeed,” but it soon turned out that an even more considerable achievement would have been to find a reference to the movie that didn’t include it.
I hear what you’re saying about your girlfriend, and had much the same experiences a while ago with my now wife, although perhaps we shouldn’t criticize Koreans too much: there are nothing like the blatant lies about the pill perpetuated by the Japanese medical/abortion industry for decades for instance, and which give many if not most Japanese women a blind negative attitude towards it not unlike Koreans’ one towards…marijuana…, and while we can criticize the abysmal state of sex education here till the cows come home I actually received none whatsoever myself, although this was more a fluke of going to 6 different high schools in 3 countries in 3 years as a teenager, always arriving and leaving just after or before I was due to receive it at the particular school, rather than it being absent from the curriculum in either the UK, New Zealand or Australia of course. Fortunately my parents were very cool and had no-nonsense attitudes towards it, with the result that by the age of 12 or so I’d certainly read and probably knew much more about it (and sexual abuse, and rape, and so on) than 90% of Western 18 year-olds, regardless of their actual experiences. My wife and friends would say that that explains a lot, but let’s not go there.
If you or anyone else is interested by the way, you can see the basic biology of sex that Korean children learn in their middle-school first grade “technology and home management” textbooks, or their 중1 기술 & 가정 books in Korean (I used them to study Korean – you can read more about that here), and they do talk about adolescence and relationships a little too…which the 13 year-old students have to write out verbatim in notebooks and then do multiple-choice tests on. I think there may be a little in their ethics/도덕 books too, and in textbooks for later grades.
I haven’t seen those AIDS advertisements sorry, although they do ring a very faint bell though.
Oranckay, thank you very much for your comments, which must have taken some quite considerable time on your part, and so to give them the response that they deserve I’ll hold off until I’ve had a good night’s sleep!
Edit: better make that two nights sorry…
James,
I, also, have no idea what we promised Daejeon. I have a link somewhere and will find it. We were talking about “gaze” in some way.
I’ll get back to you. ;-)
Rwellor, that’s cool, I found it. Talk to you about it soon…or maybe when you get back from your trip home that I read about on your blog somewhere? When are you going?
Creepy note: A waygook friend of mine told me once that while she and her co-teacher were talking about relationships, that the co-teacher said she was having trouble conceiving, and asked my friend if she thought that the EIGHT abortions she had might have anything to do with it.
*This* is why Korea needs to get on the contraceptive side of things. They have few enough women who *want* to have kids, and they should try to save the ovaries of those that do!
Driftingfocus, what can I say? I couldn’t agree more, although I think that…eight (OMG) would definitely be at the extreme limit of even the Korean bell curve for numbers of abortions.
That’s definitely above the curve, and I was shocked to hear it, but what really bothers me is that if I heard that in, say, the US or Canada, I’d think the person had some sort of psychological problem, whereas here it’s just because they have no sex-ed.
…and I was beginning to think there might be something wrong with the pills made in Korea , a number of Koreans I asked choose not to use the pill. Reasons are always “It’s not 100% sure.” or “Can still get pregnant even with pill.” I mean please what’s up with that?
Well, they’re not 100% sure. They’re around 99% which, yes, is damn close, but it’s not 100%. It’s also only 99% sure if you take the pills exactly as listed. Most doctors will tell you that given the way your average woman takes them, which is somewhat irregular, the true efficacy rate is closer to 90-95%. It’s not a good argument against using them, but it might explain those statements.
Joie, the Koreans you asked may have chosen not to use the pill for any number of reasons.
One the one hand, considering the strange mix of modern and (decidedly backward) traditional beliefs Koreans have about pregnancy and childbirth, and with sex education being so woefully inadequate here like I explained, then I imagine there’s a lot of urban myths and old wife’s tales about contraception here that may have influenced them not to use the pill. On top of that, there’s also those hypocritical notions of “women’s virtue” here too, which gave my then girlfriend now wife, for instance, the firm opinion that only couples about to be married should use the pill, although I soon persuaded her otherwise.
On the other hand, on the Korean internet there’s literally thousands of forums and information sites on just about every conceivable topic out there, so Korean women (and men) do ultimately have access to all the information they need. And not that it’s the final word by any means, but what Wikipedia has to say on the subject roughly matches what Driftingfocus said, and it took my wife a good, hell…30 seconds or so to find exactly the same information in Korean.
I guess I’m just saying that we can’t generalize, although I admit that if we were talking about Japanese women instead then I probably would, as every Japanese woman I’ve met (albeit not many) refuses point blank to ever even just consider that the pill might be a more effective and safer form of contraception than say…the withdrawal method. That’s what four decades of scaremongering by the Japanese medical and abortion industry does to you…
James,
While I’d like to take credit for the phrase — it certainly sounds like the kind of thing I’d write — I can find any reference to it. It does suit perfectly the point I’ve been thinking about off and on since my first year here, when an older friend who’d been here just a little longer than me said, “You know, they dress like us, so we mistake Koreans as being like us. But this society is radically, radically different from ours. Under all that Western clothing and behind the media and the gadgets is something far different from the world we see when we look at them.”
Which I’ve come to find is true in some ways, not so true in others. The place is in such a flux.
Anyway, one thing I thought I’d mention is what I’ve seen in the Ideas Cycle. (Like a media cycle, and related to it closely, I suspect.) Every semester, a few specific ideas gain the minds of students, and those specific ideas seem to dominate the discussions I have them lead, the issues I have them explore, or whatever. It also dominates student writing, and even extracurricular student magazine contributions. This last semester, one of the main issues was the woeful state of sex education in middle and high schools — which is easy enough to talk about — but also, the commonly-suggested complaint was that students wanted to receive sex education in university. They agreed it should be fixed in middle and high school, but were somewhat skeptical about whether it would be, and in the meantime, Universities, they claimed, could lead the way. Most of the students who brought this up at all were, unsurprisingly, female.
(And occasionally, a male student — especially one of a strong religious inclination — proceeded to castigate the class as a whole for their wantonness. I swear, I had to ask him to be respectful and not assume that (a) he knows what their sex lives are like from opinions expressed in class, and (b) not to play God and be judgmental of his classmates, as nobody had elected him to the position.)
Their proposed solution, in any case, is interesting. It doesn’t look like such a good strategy given how early so many Korean kids seem to be starting their sex lives.
(And I’m a bit dubious about the imbalance. A few other possibilities might be that people in any society, but especially — because of the stresses and taboos you mention — young women in Korea, are much less likely to tell the truth about taboo experiences, or to leave out the facts depending on who is asking and in what context.)
(And I have the impression this also plays into health care. Gynecologists supposedly ask conventionally not, “Are you sexually active?” but rather, “Are you married?” And some percentage of women avoid visits to the gynecologist because they are unmarried, even when it’s obvious they need to see one. What Oranckay describes about certain cultural attitudes,. that’s all well and good, but it doesn’t line up so well with, er, science, medicine, and any sense of valuing these women’s health.)
Finally: on AIDS commercials, one of my best students ever did a long presentation at the end of my fist semester here, on the need for advertising about Safe[r] Sex and promoting condom use. She said she’d seen plenty such commercials while living abroad — I can’t recall when or where — but seen scarce few of them in Korean TV. She gave a pretty interesting analysis of what you might call the “semiotics of AIDS-related PSAs”, using a couple of American examples she found online and then pointing out in which ways they would need to be changed for a Korean audience to respond optimally.
I didn’t know there were AIDS-related PSAs on TV in Korea, though now if someone has a link, I’d love to see whatever’s been aired.
By the way, James, it would so rock if you could get some kind of doohickey here to allow commenters to subscribe to updates on threads. I never remember to check back for new comments, but if you automated, I’d be grateful!
Gordsellar: If you’re running wordpress, to check posts you have left comments on, just go here: http://dashboard.wordpress.com/wp-admin/index.php?page=my-comments
Ah, but that just adds another site for me to have to go and check, instead of having to remember to come here.
Unless, of course, there’s a way of filtering over those wordpress.com comments onto a dashboard widget on my own standalone installation?
Oh, and I forgot to add: one thing that blew me away was how one of my students to hailed from China was pretty surprised at how underdeveloped the sex education is here. She has long been involved in peer sex education in her home country. (As in she was a volunteer who led “straight talk” instructional sessions about contraception, sexual etiquette, sexual health, and so on with students of her own age. Probably quite literally “straight” talk, but anyway.) I have no idea whether it was a government-initiated campaign, or a university initiative, or what, but she suggested it was not uncommon, at least in bigger cities in China.
Er, “to hailed from”?
“who hailed from”, rather. Sorry!
Gordsellar: I dunno, but I would not be surprised if there were a plugin for it.
Arrrgh! Gord, sorry for taking so long to reply in the first place (this post took up more of the weekend than expected), and on top of that thanks to the vagaries of WordPress 2.7, often too clever for its own good, I’ve just lost the 30 minutes I spent working on one! I’ve got to jog and then go to work now, but I’ll make sure to redo it as soon as I get back home tonight. In the meantime, thanks for helping him with the technical issue Drifitingfocus.
(10:30pm) And here I am. First up, I’m still pretty sure that you did actually say that phrase Gord – I thought of you even before I’d finished typing – but in hindsight I think it may have been in your emails rather than comments here or posts on your own blog; I’ll give you a buzz if I find it. On a more serious point though, I’d have to disagree with you on the dubiousness of the imbalance between the sexes found by the survey, if only on degree. With the proviso that all surveys of this nature will always have some degree of over and under-reporting, judging by the careful attention given to finding a representative sample, the training of those giving and explaining the questionnaires, and the emphasis throughout of the respondents’ needs for privacy then I’d be surprised if the accuracy of this particular survey wasn’t at the limits of what could be practically achieved. Nevertheless, they do still acknowledge the problem and take it into account in their conclusions.
I’m intrigued though, by all the recent attention that sex education is receiving from young people, and would be grateful if you had any possible explanations for it. Unfortunately I wouldn’t know where to start myself, and seeing as how I can go whole months without so much as speaking to anybody between the ages of 15 and 25 then you’ve probably got your ear much more attuned to the Korean “Voice of Yoof” than I do. I’m also very interested in what your student had to say about how American AIDS-related PSAs would have to be adapted for a Korean audience, and regardless will answer your request for information on what Korean equivalents there have been by writing about them myself, although it’ll have to wait until February unfortunately.
Finally I hear what you’re saying about Gynecologists (to which I’d add Pharmacists), and I’d have to say I share your female students’ enthusiasm for sex-ed classes at university: too late for sure, but much better than nothing, and more importantly a crucial step in the Korean public belatedly acknowledging that female sexuality is not magically turned on upon a women’s wedding night and just as readily turned off once she becomes pregnant. Which perhaps sounds a little exaggerated to other readers, but then going back to this post and from that my thesis topic, the big deal is that there was no discussion of women’s sexuality outside of marriage before the 2002 World Cup, and judging by the results of the survey for one the Korean public still has quite some way to go before acknowledging that big, randy elephant in the room!
P.S. If I didn’t offer it already, congrats on getting tenure at your university.
James,
No worries. BTW Driftingfocus mentioned that there must be a plugin but that means *you’d* have to install it, I think. I can’t install a follow-up subscriptions plugin on my site for your blog! (Wish I could!)
Hey, I’ll take credit for the phrase, no worries. It probably was in an email, somewhere.
Maybe my dubiousness is misplaced. Then again, I have had enough chats with friends in the sciences back home — where academic standards are waaaaaay stricter, from all I’ve heard — who told me horror stories of being asked to re-try their surveys until they got the results desired, that now I’m leery about anything involving respondents electing to reveal sensitive information. But I haven’t read the paper itself, so it’s a more blanket distrust of surveys.
I’m not sure I could point to any single reason why sex ed (and a couple of other topics, like pop psychology, Minerva, and immigrant workers’ rights) were such hot topics among students in the last semester. Topics like these surface with great regularity and universality, however: they come up when students are picking debate topics, presentation issues, topics for writing essays about, and article themes for the uni English magazine.
I suspect, given the very commonly shared stance on each topic — that the Internet needs firmer government control to prevent pop star suicides, that sex education is important but we should be careful so we don’t increase kids’ interest in sex; that poor migrant workers need to be treated better — that the topic and the angle alike are memes spread by the media, print media and TV documentaries alike.
The one weird thing about what you said — the lack of discussions of womens’ sexuality outside of marriage — is that Korean film is so NOT like that. Older films have lots of unmarried people having sex. Yeah, transgressively in a lot of stories, but it’s like a micro-obsession in a lot of older film. But as I tell my students, films reveal so much about anxieties, which is the way they should be read: not as an image of a society, but an image of its anxieties, obsessions, and fantasies. The unspeakable in life is spoken much more loudly in film.
Thanks, though I haven’t actually achieved tenure. I’m only tenure-track. Tenure would be many years (and publications, and positive student evaluations) away. :) But thanks!
Gord,
Sorry, in that case I don’t think it’s possible. I’m only vaguely aware of what a plugin is actually, but I just checked and WordPress.com definitely doesn’t allow them sorry. .
Hey, I wouldn’t disagree with any of that. But yeah, the authors of this particular survey did seem to take great pains ensuring respondent’s anonymity, although the simple fact that that they had to physically mail their completed questionnaires in after completing them in their own time probably took care of most of that (and ensured that 80% did).
Not that I’m subtly hinting that I expect you to do so without fail(!) in the future or anything, but it would be interesting to ask the reasons for students interest and if they remembered particular stories or internet memes, as I wouldn’t say that problems with sex education or immigrant worker’s rights (or rather, a lack of either) are any more frequent or prominent in the Korean media than they were, say, 5 years ago. Perhaps horror stories about both have reached a critical mass whereby it’s difficult not to know and have an opinion on them?
I’m also particularly interested in the fact that they think that sex education is important but shouldn’t increase kids’ interest in sex in the process: why virtually the same conservative gut reaction as in, say, America, and despite the overwhelming evidence that the exact opposite is the case? Not that people that disdain sex education tend to be persuaded by scientific evidence of course, but it would be interesting project in the future for me to compare and contrast the motivations, membership, and rhetoric of Korean and American purveyors of such reactionary views.
Man, I’ve really got to hurry up with the actual evidence part of this blog series cum my thesis, yes? The particular one dealing with Korean film will be the next one – Part 3 – in it and will be written within the next four weeks, but in the meantime…well come to think it, you’re actually sort-of agreeing with me, yes?
No rush or anything, but if you think of any specific names of movies that would be much appreciated, because I’ll only be echoing the comments on a handful of mid-90s movies from one of my sources in that post, and that’s about the full extent of my knowledge of “early” Korean cinema at the moment. Man…I’ve still got a lot of work to do!
Oops, although as soon as I typed it I realized that 3 years…? Tenure?!! LOL…I was a bit confused for a moment. But congrats nevertheless!
Gordsellar – I was actually saying that *you* need to install the plugin, since you’re running wordpress.org, not .com
Problem solved: a “Notify me of followup comments via email” box to check after comments was just added by WordPress.com last night. Yay!
hi i can’t see the post, all it shows are the comments. help!
Er…reseting? Clearing your browser cache and all cookies and so on? Sorry, but other than that I don’t know how I can help, as it’s working fine for me in IE, Firefox, Safari and Chrome, and on computers in two completely different locations too.
works in ie, thanks. i’ve been to korea too and yeah, there society has a crazy double standard on what males and women can do. i have a korean friend that fits all the stereotypes. for some reason she can’t even refuse a guy that is much (20+) older than her out on a date… i even asked her why the hell she did that and she wouldn’t answer. i guess you have to respect older people a disgusting degree. she also feels she can’t marry in her lifetime because she wants a career and doesn’t want to turn into a housewife. i think it’s possible to have both but, she feels it’s one or the other. i can’t stand the fact that she is discriminating against herself because she is female. i’m actually attempting to enlighten her to make decisions on what SHE wants and not what other people or her society wants.
Fatbear, glad it worked, and sorry I didn’t reply earlier.
I’m not sure what to make of your friend. As I’ve discussed in this post, the evidence of the survey I examine suggests that women are relying on men for contraception largely for the sake of maintaining a virginal reputation and so on, but I highly doubt that that passivity extends to refusing requests for actual dates, which sounds like an issue specific to your friend only. And 20+? How old is she? Regardless of that though, I can fully appreciate her not wanting to marry, as it really is virtually impossible for a woman to have a family and a career here; see here and then here as for why, to which I’d quickly add the very telling fact that Korea has the highest gender gap in the OECD (and for that, see here!).
actually what i wrote was kinda random, but i feel women or youth in korea are too submissive. i mean that as in gender discrimination, females have less say at the workplace, home, in a relationship, etc, and in age. i have seen many hyungs(big bros) boss around ddong sengs(lil bros) even though they are both over 20 and should be considered adults (at least in the U.S.) i have seen dumb ddong sengs do whatever the hyungs say, and take even take their opinions and perceptions in life and easily saying it as if it were their own. like if he thinks this is stupid, then so does the ddong seng. they listen to what older people say what is right and wrong without analyzing it and deciding for themselves. idk, i just don’t see that situation as close to as common in the U.S. but just because someone is older or another gender and his/her views are different, we still keep our own opinions. i guess it maybe due to gender roles in society and the pressure to fulfill the roles. she is 26, and when i found out how old that guy was i said “that’s gross”. i’m a blunt person haha. she did not answer but by her response in her behavior i think she agreed… she has told me (on another occasion) that she doesn’t date for money also. i mean if your not dating for money/fame/promotion in that situation… i might just not want to know. also has anyone ever heard of the term “thief” being used on older women dating younger men? anyways, every korean girl i have been with has not cared about condoms. at first i thought the first korean was a slut or something haha. but all the other girls were the same. yeah, i would say they’re probably just too ashamed to even ask
From experience I think that Koreans are less accepting of elders’ or superiors’ opinions as you say, as they would often complain about both in my classes, my being out of their circle so to speak and therefore “safe”, but it’s certainly true that Korean society is very hierarchical and doesn’t exactly encourage perople standing up to stupidity or injustice by those of higher status than themselves.
Sorry, but could you please pay more attention with your comments next time, like maybe by using paragraphs and punctuation? I don’t mean to be rude, but that was extremely difficult to read.
Just wanted to say thanks for bringing up this post! I’m a graduate student from Nazareth College in Rochester, NY, training to teach in South Korea. I’ll be raising this issue for debate during our student health workshop tonight, so I’ll post back later with how it turned out. Thanks again!
Thanks, looking forward to it.
Whats wrong with women being virtuous. Maybe Korea can delay the rapid degeneration of their society for another generation by not being as “advanced” as the rest of the West. Hail to traditional values when these values lead to anything but the moral decay that we see in our western culture.
There’s nothing at wrong with women being “virtuous.” Being so concerned about it to the extent that one won’t use contraception is though, and one of the biggest abortion industries in the world is testament to that fact. The West may indeed be morally decayed and degenerate in this regard, but it’s not like young Koreans don’t have almost as much sex as their Western counterparts, and being open about it sure as hell seems to lead to happier and literally healthier sex lives for all, especially women.
i apologies if my comments will/have induce/d any negative or stupid comments. let me try to explain myself.
first, i wouldn’t bother with reading this stuff if i didn’t legitimately care about my korean friend. sorry i went off on a tangent with the post, but only after i saw these problems in a friend that i actually realized what a problem it was. i would say yeah, my friend specifically got more sucked into society’s ideals than women normally have. or maybe it’s just her and she’s stupid? she also does not use contraceptives
second, i’d have to say if you’re reading this stuff and thinking about getting laid after, you’re a loser.
third, not a boast but just because my experiences with korean women were so, doesn’t mean it’ll be the same for anyone else.
and finally, i don’t mean to offend anybody, i’m sorry
I have been reading this post and the entire thing has gotten me a little conffused. Are Korean women stupid, uninformed, or suppresed? I have been in Korea for about a month and my “view” is that in many was they are, for lack of a better word, “premitive”. I dont mean to insult anyone but that’s just my opinion. If you could, sum up the facts and tell me why Korean are so different. They act the same on the surface but there is a difference underneath that i can not place. I think it’s mostly because of my inexperience and my VERY limited understanding of the Korean language.
Morbas, well mostly the latter two of course! Sorry, but it would take an hour or so for me to summarize why and I don’t really have the time, but if you check out some of the posts I link to in the sidebar you’d begin to get some sort of idea, and I’d recommend starting with this post on why Koreans (of both sexes) generally lack critical thinking skills and then this series here, here and here on the passive, submissive and inferior role that Neo-Confucianism assigns to women; sexual freedom for them does tend to work against their traditional role of being a mere vessel for the continuation of one male’s “life spirt” (for want of a better phrase).
Excellent article, I really enjoyed reading it. I have noticed the severe lack of knowledge and general ignorance towards sex, and particularly contraception, since arriving in Seoul. As such, I found this article particularly potent. I’m currently in a long term relationship with a Korean girl and know from personal experience that she was forced into sex during her past relationship. What I found even more disturbing than this knowledge, was her apparent indifference to it, how it seemed standard fare. I had to essentially spell it out to her that she had been raped.
It just goes to show that different areas of Korean culture are progressing with an ever increasing disparity. Ignorance certainly isn’t bliss.
ok, but men clearly don’t understand that the pill has some undesirable side effects like nausea and spotting, or having your period 3 times a month, not to mention mood alterations.
Is it that hard to put on a condom? It’s still sexist to expect your girlfriend to feel nausea every other day just so you can ‘not interrupt’ sex.
Betty, let me refer you to this comment by way of reply, to which I’d add that you’re generalizing far too much about men: these days, women in established relationships would be by far the most prolific users of the pill, so if the men in them didn’t know about those (exaggerated) side effects before getting together, it would be a pretty strange relationship where their female partners didn’t inform them pretty soon thereafter.
It is indeed not hard to put on a condom (no pun intended), but there’s far more negatives to that method of contraception for both partners than just “not interrupting” sex, and I’d challenge your implied presumption that all women don’t mind (or even prefer) condoms whereas all men hate them, which is simply not true.
Besides which, did you even read the post? Regardless of the benefits of using condoms and the (exaggerated) side effects of using the pill, the point of the post was that many Korean women aren’t even asking or insisting that their partners wear condoms, for fear of besmirching their virginal reputations. Saying that “men clearly don’t understand” the side-effects of using the pill is not just wrong, but completely irrelevant.
what is the movie name of the picture above? the one a guy wearing soldier cloth and a girl on the left, both in same room?
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. The pictures are from this movie.
A question: Do you write all these things to tell what you feel over Korean society & culture and is that it? Or do you write to tell what u feel abt it and MORE, to listen to why for certain things that you dunt understand?
If the latter were what u want, which is the reasercher’s way while the former is just a mere expat’s personal story of one’s feeling, you shud write in Korean to listen to Koreans’ opinions. Haven’t you studied Korean yet even though u research on Korean Sociology? Dont you know only some Koreans read these, not all and cuz it’s in English, they feel tired and even dont finish reading it all? If you want to listen to the real opinions and analyze a society and its sociology, listen to their opinions as well as yr main readers- expats! Isn’t it a mature way for a researcher to come down to the conclusion after the proper analysis?
Even though I am good at English enough, I also felt lazy and tired to read to the end, so I dunt want to leave a comment but I’m sure that u will get a lot of different and explaining opinions that you’ve never imagined to get while you are just listening to the agreeable remarks and saying U just dunt get it.
So… study Korean first and go to AGORA at daum.net and post yr writings :)
U will get a lot of opinion which you’ve never got so far. As you might agree, Koreans are the No. 1 Internet citizens. All the dabatings are much more vivid than here :)
BaikSong, JongMi–just a quick note to say that I’ll reply properly just as soon as I can: it’s just that things are crazily busy at home right now sorry!
BaikSong, JongMi–Sorry for the delay.
It is certainly true that I and this blog would greatly benefit from more feedback from Koreans, but that I’m not going to get many Korean readers if I only write in English. All granted, 100%. But I still have some big problems with what you wrote.
You say or imply based on my writing in only English, that: this is just a blog by and for expats; that it’s “to tell what [I] feel over Korean society & culture and is that it” and not “to listen to why for certain things that [I] dunt understand”; and that I don’t listen to Korean’s opinions on anything.
All of those are simply not true, and I’m not going to bother giving a detailed answer as to why, as you obviously just saw this one post, which you admit to not reading (and probably not understanding) all of, noticed that it was written in English by a non-Korean, and then just assumed all that about me and my blog, and decided to lecture me.
At the moment I’m too busy with my two young kids, trying to make enough money for the 4 of us, and continuously trying to catch up with sleep to consider writing a Korean-language blog; apart from writing this one, then I literally don’t do anything else…no hobbies, no cinema trips, no holidays out of Busan…nada. When I have the time and energy once they’re a little older, then I’ll think about it, and try very hard not to assume that all other Koreans will never listen to what I say simply because I’m not Korean, like you did.
In the meantime, input from my Korean wife, Korean friends, reading and translating Korean newspaper articles, and reading surveys and journal papers and so on written by Koreans will have to make do I’m afraid.
I appreciate ur point.
U r quite right about their ignorance of contraceptives.
(“Been there, done that” stuff sucks, huh?)
Hope Korean young women can have a better life than ‘moi,’ but getting laid issue or taking initiatives in bed or in relatiionships should be dealt with in a bigger frame of thier indenpendence. Talked to 20 something girls and i think they still have a long way to go in terms of their financial independence.(that’s quite more important…i think.) Too many of them just pick an easy way of life of being a dependent all their life.
When i was a univ. student, ‘smoking’ female students used to be slapped by male students in school cafeteria. ( long time ago? well, i graduated in 1993.) I’ve never been free from my education to be a ‘good’ girl here; not that i didn’t know it’s choking or din’t know how to do, but that it’s just my ambition to climb up the ladder came first and i negotiated ..to be sucessful as a woman in this society, i should maintain this good woman image. (Damn..how i hate this!) Well, i can speak freely about the topic, but i NEVER act. Pathetic, I know, but it’s just u can have everything in ur life, plus can’t find the right Kr guy. It’s just painful to even think about getting laid with a guy who thinks i am a slut, just because i want a friend with benefits, though i know they are available there – a bunch of them – within my reach and will enjoyt free ‘benefits.’ I don’t want marriage, but i want to be respected.
I studied in an Eng. speaking country; and believe me…we (single Kr. girls there) sometimes rent our hair, lamenting ‘we’re dumb inside class and nuns outside class.’ Never dated ‘foreign men’ because the Kr. circle in a foreign country was very narrow and words spread back to Kr. (It’s a very small world.) (One of my cousins smoked in the hall of a lang. school in Sydney in 1992, and every relative in Kr. heard about it. U can never imagine how my parents brainwashed me be sending me over to study. My mother even went to a fortune teller to ask if all her daughters could marry as virgins.) I couldn’t bear my reputation being fouled that way. Thesedays, in cities like NY, LA, Vancouver or Sydney, the number of Kr is so big there is no worry about that.
Some Kr girls have given a hard thought about it, and they know and they can get knowledge if they want to know. The thing is, actually one thing i found miserable, is Kr men hardly change. And there are things girls alone cannot change in relationships.
Afraid getting nowhere except some self-pity stuff. (Darn & Sorry)
My advice is never go to Agora (Daum) as a Korean suggested up there. It is where all losers of omega males tyr to feel rewarded by boasting their petty male egos as if cyber slandering could make thier petty dicks bigger. (Ooops, sorry again.)
Sorry I took so long to reply.
I’m afraid I’ve lost track of what I said in this post and in the comments exactly, but it’s certainly true that I didn’t pay enough attention to the context of unmarried women’s (and men’s) lack of financial independence, although probably not by coincidence I started writing about that a lot shortly after writing this post (see here, here and here for starters). Over a year ago though, here I talked a little about the inequitable housework and curfew arrangements unmarried women and men generally have, so I’m not sure being dependent is all that “easy”!
It’s very interesting hearing about life as a Korean university student – a first-hand account noticeably absent so far, and thank you for it – and I can well believe things like having cigarettes slapped out of your mouth by male students: hell, even 10 years later most women felt they had to hide it (or at least there were newspaper articles saying so), and it’s only been in the last 2 years or so I’ve really noticed a lot of women openly smoking in bars and so on (not so much on the street though).
Living in the countryside in my first 3 years here, I can also understand how the closed, village-like nature of Korean society (which I’ve written about here) limits women’s freedom especially, and it impacted on my relationship with my now wife. Naturally, I can see how the same mentality would extend to Korean expat communities, and judging by what this Sydney-based(?) blogger writes of the behavior of Korean men in Australia (see here for instance), things may not have changed all that much really.
Other than that, I don’t really know what else to add sorry. But on a final note though, judging by the survey discussed in this post, the prospect of “getting laid with a guy who thinks [they're] a slut” still figures very big in Korean women’s lives, I disagree that this is “one of those things girls alone cannot change in relationships.” Certainly Korean men’s mentalities about women’s sexuality is something that drastically needs to be changed, but while I don’t know if there was ever a period in any Western countries when men thought that women who insisted on using contraception were sluts, I’d wager good money that Western men began to accept using condoms (and not judging women based on that) much more because of women insisting on it than any fear of AIDS and unwanted pregnancy and so on (although those did still play a role). Similarly, this is just something Korean women are going to have to do for themselves.
Sorry if that didn’t make much sense either, I’m quite tired here (took a long time to put my daughter to bed!).
I’m an american living in Korea and I’m looking for information on Korean women’s social behaviors. More specifically sexual behavior and what male behaviors they are attracted to(Are they any different?) I’ve approached a lot of girls in both the night club and day time setting (more in the daytime). I’ve noticed they respond much the same way as American women to touching and general alpha male behavior (Not caring when they test, being the playful leader, acting bored and getting the girl to qualify herself to you.)
Some people have told me it is acceptable that a Korean girl has a boyfriend on the side as long as she keeps it low profile. The same goes for a Korean man. Is this true yes or no?
Can a Korean woman become more comfortable with their sexuality even after years of social conditioning?
I saw that there was a Korean TV programme tonight in which a “doctor” discussed the perils of taking the contraceptive pill. No balanced objective; just a highlight of the negative points in taking it.
I can only imagine how many Korean girls will believe this “story” like they did with the “factual” US Beef Story and resort to not using any birth control pills. The pill at least provides them a form of birth control when their boyfriends refuse to wear condoms. [Withdrawal method is not safe!!!!]
Abortion doctor! Here we come.
Korean girls promiscuous. One would have had to have been away from home for a loooooong time to actually believe that. I get the feeling many westerners in Korea like to believe Korean girls promiscuous to satisfy their own egos. The statistics, 30% is not a lot, in the least.
l’m korean
고로 나는 한글을 칠수가있지
Son Sang Hyuk: Sorry, but what’s your point exactly?
혹시 한글을 해석할수있니? 난 그냥 구글에서 fuck 를 쳤는데 이홈페이지가 나왓어
들어가보니 한국 연애인들과 한국광고 등 글이 올라와 있어서 신기해서 글을 남겨봤어
그냥 막말이야 신경쓸거없어
lol…kindly be polite enough to type in English. You’re not fooling anyone around here.
uh, maybe this person is Korean and doesn’t write English that well. Besides, what the person wrote wasn’t even that hard to translate. Maybe you should be content with that or learn some Korean.
This is what I feel about Korean girls around me. I have many smart and educated Korean female friends, but their knowledge or interest in learning about contraception is pretty low.
I linked this to my posting about birth control.
Hmm. there is no trackback feature here..
Here is my article (in Korean).
http://mybink.com/2009/06/30/birthcontrol/
I agree with this post, but I think this submissiveness tends to be overcompensated for by Korean women later in life. I’m not sure if this is just the elder superiority role, but it frustrates me to see my mom being ordered around like a servant by my dad’s mom. After confronting her about that, she just replies that since I was raised as an American, I wouldn’t understand. I am hating living here though…
Koreans ARE NOT the number one Internet population. Just an annoyance when I hear Koreans glorifying themselves..ironic, I am a Korean citizen by birth, an American by heart. Nah, the massive amount of Call of Duty online players should be the highest in population figures.
[...] birth control is less expensive here than back at home, and similarly effective. However it is usually considered the man’s responsibility to provide contraception, and, since American (read: white) women are stereotyped as harlots in the [...]
Sex education should be explained in depth more in Korea, abortion discouraged/prevented, and the pill used with caution due to longterm side effects and complications that will eventually show up with most women later in life.
But I would not like to see sex encouraged more towards people merely wanting to do it as a hobby like you see so much in America and many other parts of the world. One reason I am interested in Korean culture is because of the fact the majority is much more modest about sexual issues compared to other countries. Like in America, I do not even like to go to the grocery store, as sex is constantly promoted on magazine stands and in songs on the radio. It is even in some teenage magazines, like young people should even be encouraged to have sex in the first place?
I was born in America and am very disappointed in the sexual behavior of the majority, and how it influences people all over the world in immoral ways.
Sex is a serious issue, emotionally, physically, socially, etc. And of course in worse cases, it can cause disease (even when using forms of birth control), and unwanted pregnancies. But then again, anyone should know better, that when they have sex, they should be ready for the fact that a child may happen, they should do it with someone they plan to stay with for a long time/forever.
Once again, with sex education being increased, I really hope that sex with just any partner, for the unreasonable means of just having sex, would not be encouraged, and that along with sex education, that sexual standards will still be encouraged, unlike how in American schools, they do not teach sexual standards.
Sorry for the ramble, I just found this as I was looking up the particular topic of korean “relationships”. And I am disappointed if Korean society really is losing it’s standards, I already have realized that it is gradually increasing in the loosening of it’s standards due to exposure to entertainment and the internet. :/
I am an American living in Seoul. Ivied lived here for 10 years. Maybe I missed it in this well written report but I can tell you that there is a booming business in the motel industry. they are cleverly disguised so you can sneak in and out under cover. every single town has rows and rows of motels. And yes they are definitely equipt for one night stands. Some of course are for the weary traveler (RIGHT) in the rooms they are made up to looks like a room only quagmire would approve and YES on the night stand you might find a few packets of condoms. Now I am here on business so don’t get me wrong… I witness this because I’ve had to stay at these “Motels” every once in a while before i settled in to an apartment were i live. There’s a lot of taboo stuff going on in Korea that is in plain sight. Also .. young Korean adults are socially l5 to 6 years behind the west in maturity. I tribute a lot of their innocence because of the rigorous educational time they are force to deal with. This is just my observation and opinion. This was a great article.
Thanks for the insightful post. Reading this reminds me of my parents getting outraged when they found out I took pills in my freshman year away at college. They worried over how other korean people would look at me like I’m a harlot and lectured me about why pills should only be taken by married women. Ridiculous, isn’t it? I was born in America. Although I had spent my younger years in Korea, (I’ve come back at the age of 14), I fail to understand the general reluctance of the koreans to acknowledge the need for proper sex ed. What I learn at school and out of home here is very different from what I have to encounter at home. I’m tired of the differences; I still have to act like I’m a ‘proper’ girl back at home.
Thanks for the compliments, and like you say: ridiculous. In Korea’s defense though, while sex-ed here is indeed still terrible, the society as a whole is slowly but surely becoming more sexually liberal; let’s just say I’m a bit more aware of the changes and more positive now than when this post was written! And come to think of it they do say that emigrants from any given country, especially adults, can ultimately become more conservative than people back in their home country as they romanticize and cling to an image of it that is not longer accurate. I’m sure you’re aware of that though, and I don’t mean to sound patronizing by mentioning it, but I’m curious as to if you think it applies to your own? I just ask because I’ve lived in 4 countries myself, 3 with my parents, & although they’ll probably deny it it even happened to them a little!^^
[...] By the Number section which had the figures – David could you provide the link?) But Grand Narrative also did a long and very interesting posting about this problem. Korea Times (March 16, 2010) and JoongAng Daily had two article about teen [...]
If any Korean women read this entire article, it is sad. Western culture is destroying the Korean culture through tv ads, copying drama tv show themes, etc.
NEVER have sexual relations with foreigners from any country. AIDS rates are lowest in Korea and much higher in western countries.
Why take a huge risk?
Also, wait until you are married to have relations with Korean men. Stay away from anyone who is drunk as well. And do not drink alcohol at all unless it’s minimal at required gatherings.
Why do Koreans have to copy the western culture where people have sex at younger ages?
Why can’t Korean culture prevail and win in Korea??? This makes me so frustrated!
I think Korean women should still wear Han-Bok and not trashy clothing.
I appreciate the honesty, kindness, intelligence and freedom of Korean culture when I visited there. As a westerner myself, we should adopt many facets of your culture.
Whether you’re a troll or merely racist, your moronic comments are not welcome here.
Banned.
To Shocked:
1. If you are a male you’re probably over 50 and an old fashion A hole.
2. If you are a male under 50 you’re probably a nerd and never had a woman.
3. If you are a female you’re probably an old maid over 50.
4. If you are a female under 50 you’re probably ugly as hell and never had a man.
5. You are probably Korean.
6. You are most definitely a narrow minded SOB.
You can not BE SERIOUS! This isn’t just about the Western cultures who are “destroying” the Korean culture, but rather how double standards exist even in Korea. Women should know about birth control, because even though you claim the Korean society is oh so wonderful, its been proven that pregnant women are one of the first people to be fired. Now imagine that some of these women don’t want to become stay at home mothers, but want to expand their careers. But it seems that they can’t do that can they? As a Westerner MYSELF, I question the intelligence of a culture that does not inform their women citizens on very important information like this. And don’t even claim that I am hating on the Korean culture-I highly admire it, but there are somethings like this that makes me question their values.
Well, let’s all be realistic (and superficial) here.
Koreans have one of the best-looks in Asia — Take sharp noses for an example, only Caucasian possess those (with no plastic surgeon’s aid or whatsoever of course) and the only race (not being racist here coz I myself ain’t an Korean) with the best features in Asia I’d say, are Korean.
What are irresistibly hot these days? K-POP.
I browsed through the above texts and pictures (though not a thorough one) and I stumbled across Wondergirl (K-pop all-girl band) picture.
Who doesn’t know them after their hit single ‘Nobody’ as out?
That even ‘Nobody’ was sung by the PCD (Pussycat dolls) in their own version (not copyrighted of course) and they even went on a concert tour with Jonas Brothers.
Their fame was international, and by international I don’t mean just out of Korea in other Asian countries, it’s going as far as America — Though they have not officially start producing an album in USA like what their fellow label-mate, BoA, did.
And one thing is — These girls are HOT.
Guys could go gaga over them simply shaking their booties and point their fingers in ‘I want nobody nobody but you’ and could practically ogle at them onscreen — Even after the performance ended.
Being straightforward here — WHICH GUY WOULD REJECT FUCKING THEM IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY?
Maybe if you have committed the rest of your live in being a holy monk, then maybe, or if you aspire to be a all-pure wushu master like Donnie Yen in Ip Man, maybe so too.
And now let’s say, for girls, the most famous and hot K-pop boyband I could think of right now is — Super Junior.
They also took Asia (and further) by massive storm through their hit-single ‘Sorry Sorry’, that you could practically see everyone around, in the train, waiting of train at the subway, or dancing to their ‘Sorry Sorry’ song as their morning exercise that they achieved overnight fame — Same goes for the above mentioned Wondergirls.
They are young, hot, aspiring stars which brings breathtaking performance and have gained massive fanbase all around — Mainly consisting of teenagers.
..
…
..
Basically, everyone around thinks that Korea has awesome and hot people amongst their citizens — Not only celebrities.
So all these immorality begins — Don’t tell me you’d wanna fuck someone with a face of (being more straightforward and blunt here), Susan Boyle.
Sorry to Susan Boyle’s fans but, I’m just stating an example as to why Korea’s underage sex and using of contraception is rises — Because people have the misconception that ALL (not even one less) Koreans are good-looking.
But I’d like to beg to differ.
I’ve not personally visited Korea, but well, my Aunt did and this was what she told me — “We often watch their KBS dramas and think that their artistes are god-damn gorgeous to die for. On my trip there, I was dumbfounded when I walked on the streets to see that they were all ugly, err sorry, I meant, average-looking, just average. I guess they just pick the best out of the bests, even for calefare(s), to star in the serials/movies.”
And she told me that her trip there was so wasted.
Being superficial here yet again, maybe the fuckings only happen amongst the better-looking one.
Yes, you get me.
You don’t want me to repeat the Susan Boyle’s example again don’t you (I certainly don’t for fear of Susan Boyle’s fans kiling me).
Alright there, my long (in fact longest) comment (ever).
Cheers!
**RE-EDITED, READ THIS INSTEAD OF THE ABOVE — THE ABOVE HAS FUCKING LOTS OF TYPO(S) AND GRAMMATICAL ERRORS.**
Well, let’s all be realistic (and superficial) here.
Koreans have one of the best-looks in Asia — Take sharp noses for an example, only Caucasian possess those (with no plastic surgeon’s aid or whatsoever of course) and the only race (not being racist here coz I myself ain’t a Korean) with the best features in Asia I’d say, are Koreans.
What are irresistibly hot these days? K-POP.
I browsed through the above texts and pictures (though not a thorough one) and I stumbled across Wondergirls (K-pop all-girl band) picture.
Who doesn’t know them after their hit single ‘Nobody’ was out?
That even ‘Nobody’ was sung by the PCD (Pussycat dolls) in their own version (not copyrighted of course) and they even went on a concert tour with Jonas Brothers.
Their fame was international, and by international I don’t mean just out of Korea in other Asian countries, it’s going as far as America — Though they have not officially start producing an album in USA like what their fellow label-mate, BoA did, — They UNDOUBTEDLY have create some massive commotion worldwide.
And another thing thing is — These girls are HOT.
Guys could go gaga over them simply shaking their booties and point their fingers in ‘I want nobody nobody but you’ and could practically ogle at them onscreen — Even after the performance ended.
Being straightforward here — WHICH GUY WOULD REJECT FUCKING THEM IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY?
Maybe if you have committed the rest of your live in being a holy monk, then maybe, or if you aspire to be an all-pure wushu master like Donnie Yen in Ip Man, maybe so too.
And now let’s say, for girls, the most famous and hot K-pop boyband I could think of right now is — Super Junior.
They also took Asia (and further) by massive storm through their hit-single ‘Sorry Sorry’, that you could practically see everyone around, in the train, waiting of train at the subway, or dancing to their ‘Sorry Sorry’ song as their morning exercise. This CLREALY shows the fame they achieved overnight fame at their tender age — Same goes for the above mentioned Wondergirls.
(Sorry straightworward here) — WHICH GIRL WOULD REJECT A CHANCE (LET’S NOT SAY ‘FUCKING’), BEDDING THEM?
They are young, hot, aspiring stars which brings breathtaking performance and have gained massive fanbase all around — Mainly consisting of teenagers.
..
…
..
Basically, everyone around thinks that Korea has awesome and hot people amongst their citizens — Not only celebrities.
So all these immorality begins — Don’t tell me you’d wanna fuck someone with a face of (being more straightforward and blunt here), Susan Boyle.
Sorry to Susan Boyle’s fans but, I’m just stating an example as to why Korea’s underage sex and using of contraception is rises — Because people have the misconception that ALL (not even one less) Koreans are good-looking.
But I’d like to beg to differ.
I’ve not personally visited Korea, but well, my Aunt did and this was what she told me — “We often watch their KBS dramas and think that their artistes are god-damn gorgeous to die for. On my trip there, I was dumbfounded when I walked on the streets to see that they were all ugly, err sorry, I meant, average-looking, just average. I guess they just pick the best out of the bests, even for calefare(s), to star in the serials/movies.”
And she told me that her trip there was so wasted.
Being superficial here yet again, maybe the fucking(s) only happen amongst the better-looking one.
Yes, you get me.
You don’t want me to repeat the Susan Boyle’s example again don’t you (I certainly don’t for fear of Susan Boyle’s fans killing me).
Alright there, my long (in fact longest) comment (ever).
Cheers!
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by JamesTurnbull, James Simpson. James Simpson said: Why Korean Girls Don’t Say No: Contraception Commercials, Condom Use and Double Standards in South Korea « The Grand… http://bit.ly/aDDsm9 [...]
To Shocked:
1. If you are a male you’re probably over 50 and an old fashion A hole.
2. If you are a male under 50 you’re probably a nerd and never had a woman.
3. If you are a female you’re probably an old maid over 50.
4. If you are a female under 50 you’re probably ugly as hell and never had a man.
5. You are probably Korean.
6. You are most definitely a narrow minded SOB.
Wow, that was all really interesting. Mostly it was interesting to me because I’ve spent several years living in Japan, where it seems that things are very similar. Terrible wage gap? Check. Women expected to be slutty virgins and rely on men to (not) use condoms? Check. Male chauvanism? Check. Pill only made legal recently? Check. No one using it? Double-check. Abortion City? Triple-check.
I’ve always said Japan was about 50 years behind the west as far as social issues. I suppose that means Korea is 60 or 70. Hopefully one day they’ll both catch up.
Thanks for your comment, and yeah, I’ve noticed the similarities too. And given the cultural differences between the two countries, and especially the fact that Confucianism isn’t all that big in Japan, then I’d argue that the gender gaps etc. are intrinsic to the countries’ shared models of economic development more than anything else, as I explain a little here.
I’d try to avoid saying things like Japan or Korea are 50 years (or whatever) behind the West in terms of social issues though, although I have to admit that I’ve often done so in the past. Partially because it implies that they’ll simply eventually catch up and be a carbon copy the West, which is naive at best, but also because, as fellow blogger Gord Sellar explains:
I should clarify: I think the idea that the West might be carbon-copies is, to some degree, supported by the kinds of popular discourse about development Koreans themselves are engaging in all over. They often map it out teleologically and consider it in terms of being “behind” this or that society, or “ahead” of another.
Which is somewhat different from us mapping our own assumptions about development onto Korea’s future, right? But also… there is room to wonder how many of the changes we see in our experience of modernity can be expected to be inherent to the process of consumer-capitalist modernization. For example, 1920s America and 200s Korea both had noticeable pop-cultural outbursts of demonizing women in part on the basis of their newly activated role as consumers of goods marketed at women–right down to cigarettes, as James notes elsewhere; it seems likely that marketing to women is inevitable when modernity begins and women (also likely inevitably, in a consumerist-capitalist modernity) enter the workforce but retain some access to leisure time. Women will become consumers of goods marketed to women alone, and societies for which that is new (ie. most “traditional” societies at an earlier stage in consumer-capitalist modernization) will tend to react negatively to it.
It’s not the first time such an outburst happened in Korea, mind: in cinema, we see cases earlier on. (Especially demonizing women who chose to do sex work with rich foreign men, at the same time that the government was quietly supporting this in camptowns, and rich women who were not ashamed to consume conspicuously, as in a few older Korean films I’ve seen from the 1970s.)
Germane tp James’ point, one wonders to what degree the kind of sexual liberalization we’re seeing in Korea–which by the way is far more comparable to what we see in the 1920s in the USA than anything in a later American era–also involves some sort of rough telelogical path bound to traits like leisure time, surplus income, marital laws and norms, and the formation of sexual identity, and how much of all that isn’t somehow hardwired into consumer-capitalist modernity, or at least softwired into it by virtue of the fact that, in a sense, American consumer-capitalist modernity does in fact serve as a kind of taproot text (and even a plagiaristic source) to the form of modernity being constructed at present in Korea.
First of all, let’s say I love this blog. It’s refreshing to find some balanced and intelligent commentary on the situations unique to Korea rather than trollish hate speech and embittered litanies from expats who have had a bad time (considering what Korea is like for foreigners, I can hardly blame them, but it does get tiring to listen to) or alternately, the self-congratulatory swill produced by the Korean mainstream media. I sometimes wish you’d dig just a little deeper, as your articles get very, very, very close… but always seem to leave off just short of actually scratching the itch that’s there. That said, this does seem to be the most consistently excellent blog on Korean social issues… especially gender issues, which is a favorite topic of mine to begin with.
My family emigrated to the United States when I was very young. I was educated there, and only returned to Korea upon entering college. I had a hard time adjusting, but proving to be even more difficult is the task of making sense of a society that is alternately completely foreign and all too close for comfort. I can definitely say that my parents romanticize the Korea that they left in favor of the Korea that they returned to. It doesn’t help that my mom’s side of the family are modern-day seonbi: genteel, but hidebound and very old-fashioned. My grandmother thinks oral sex is a tool used only by evil women out to wreck homes, and I just came back from Seollal at her house being lectured about “a woman’s place is in the home”. It doesn’t bother me too much because I know my grandparents are products of their time, and I don’t see very much of them anyway.
As for my mother, though she is very much in favor of more involved sex-ed, her ideal curriculum is one that emphasizes abstinence (but does not preclude contraception) and she is puzzled that I know so much about contraception methods now when I am (supposedly) saving myself for marriage. She imposes a curfew of 10 p.m. to this day, when I am nearly done with college, which I cannot even object to because the objection itself would provoke immediate suspicion: “WHY would you want your curfew extended? Good girls have no need to be out late at night.”
Yet I cannot simply write her off because she does not deploy the double-standard: she believes just as strongly in men saving themselves for a good sex life with their wives (porn and prostitution spoil them for it, so those need to go too, by her account). I rather find it interesting, in fact, how my mother’s values when it comes to sex are a mishmash of pre-feminism, first-wave, second-wave, and third-wave feminism. To me, who is more familiar with the Western timeline of the progression of feminist thought, it seems contradictory and anachronistic for my mother to espouse victorian “angel-in-the-house” values and equality in the workplace, sexual expression (within marriage) and prohibition of sexuality (outside of marriage), all at the same time.
For that reason, I find her values philsophically unsustainable and very messy. Her values are based on practicalities and not internal consistency. She has made efforts at liberalism but has stopped short of challenging the inconsistencies of her own worldview. And I find this to be a marked characteristic of Korean society: the ideals and morals upon which it is based are largely consequentialist. Or maybe it only seems that way to my Western eye, and there really is some philosophical coherence to all this that is essentially different from the Western way of thinking? I really don’t know. I just got this brainwave from reading the post, and most of the points I make I probably need to develop more in order for them to have any obvious relevance to this post, and I’m late in coming anyway. Just thought I’d let you know you have another faithful reader :)
Thank you very much for your comment and compliments, and please do let me know when you think I could have dug a little deeper on things: I’m always grateful for any constructive criticism.
Your family meanwhile, sounds very interesting (especially your mother), and I can certainly empathize with your grandparents romanticizing Korea, which my own parents used to do of the UK when we lived in New Zealand and Australia, although they definitely reassessed things when they returned a few years later. Me too, following their example, although my own personal reassessment was more due to me (naturally) noticing a lot at 15 that I didn’t when I left at 11.
Just one thing I didn’t understand in your comment though: what do you mean when you say that “the ideals and morals upon which [Korean society are possibly] based are largely consequentialist”? Not disagreeing necessarily, but I’m afraid my knowledge of philosophical terms is pretty minimal sorry!
Well, what I was really trying to say was that I like your writing so much that I would like to see more of it, and that I am confident that you are indeed on the right track to… something, though I can’t say for sure what would be missing from your articles.
Actually, I’m not sure I used the word “consequentialist” correctly myself. What I meant to say, using my mother as an example, is that the criteria by which Korean society judges what influences or actions are good or not (i.e. morals) seem not to be based on any underlying philosophical framework, but on the results they yield. My mother was a big fan of the Cosby Show when it aired in Korea back in the 80s, as well as Little House on the Prairie, and her idea of what the world should be like is very much based on the family lives portrayed in those two shows: close-knit and loving. Which, I’m pretty sure is something that most people would at least find desirable, even if they choose not to mold their lives along such lines. Now, my mother believes that a lively and affectionate sex life between married couples, no matter what stage they are at in life, is requisite to the kind of home life I describe above. Something else that a lot of people would probably agree with (even Koreans seem to be acknowledging the need for sexual expression as a healthy part of marriage, if the reality and talk shows my mother watches are any indicator.)
Which is why I find it very odd that my mother is all for sexual expression within the bounds of marriage but suddenly does a whiplash when it comes to premarital sex. At the same time, she does not deny that youth have sexual urges, nor that better sex-ed is needed. Yet her idea of better sex-ed is that teens should be taught to sublimate their sexual drive into more “productive” activities such as studies, sports or hobbies or (sexless) camaraderie…… and I find that rationalization falls somewhat flat, because first off, I’m not sure if “sublimation” in that way is really possible: I never heard of anyone eating kimchi to fulfill a craving for bacon, have you? Secondly, I believe (and have heard many people say) that sex is something you warm up to gradually and develop in stages; it is not, as you say elsewhere, something that can be ignored all one’s life then expected to come as called (no pun intended), at full capacity (really, no pun intended) during the wedding night. Of course, anyone can choose to postpone sexual activity to his or her wedding night, until financial independence, until he or she finds the right person, or forever, but then that person would be moving according to his or her own timetable. Therefore, to categorically define sex (for all people regardless of their personal beliefs) before a possibly arbitrary point as immoral and after that point as to be encouraged sort of defeats the purpose of sexual expression to me.
But when I say this to her, she retorts that “Sex makes you unable to dump unworthy men, it’s better for the woman that way” and therefore, that all women really want to remain virgins until their wedding nights, and the rest are outliers anyway. Now this does not ring true to me: in order to not go against the principle of self-determination that she believes in, my mother has wandered into a trap: namely, she has made some (very risky) assumptions about reality for the sake of justifying and protecting a morality once it is held up to ideological scrutiny.
My mother is usually an intelligent woman with a mind of her own: she doesn’t send my brother to cram school, for example, because she thinks it will stunt his critical thinking and self-discipline, and because she knows it would take time away from soccer, which is his passion. She’s liberal and open to new ideas…… but only insofar that they do not challenge her conception of an ideal world. Good sex in marriage agrees with her notion of domestic bliss, so she is all for it, but the idea of premarital sex makes her uncomfortable because it challenges the basic notions about sexuality that she was raised with, and because it contributes nothing obvious to her ideal; she fails to see that the two concepts in fact go hand-in-hand, and that you can’t have one without the other, all because she is more fixated on the tangible manifestations of sex rather than on the principles underlying those manifestations.
Now, to see my mother as a microcosm of Korean society may well be a logical overreaching on my part, but I believe that there are some common features between the way my mother tackles morality, and the way that Koreans in general tackle morality. I cannot think of any particular examples at this moment: some that spring to mind are Koreans’ attitudes toward academic performance (performance trumps learning), child-rearing (plying their children with material goods and care in an attempt to “give them the best,” but a tendency to try to dictate their lives and refuse them autonomy), teen sexuality (don’t ask, don’t tell), and homeless people (out of sight, out of mind). At any rate, just as my mother’s failure to consider etiological links between two seemingly different practices led her into a logical quandary, so might a general Korean tendency to see the trees before the forest lead to the hypocrisy and (in the long run) self-defeating actions we see rampant in Korean society.
Oh, and from what I understand, the girl was raised in Germany, and I don’t know how common contraceptive pills are over there, but I certainly don’t find it very convincing that she wasn’t exposed to them at all. She even needed her brother’s encouragement to take on the ad in the first place, indicating that she knew exactly what she was getting into. So yeah, I’d say your interpretation of the events is likely to be correct.
Of course, then there’s the fact that the Korean media tends to write what the audience wants to hear, even when that means outright putting words in the interviewee’s mouth, when it comes to Seoul National University students. So maybe she never pretended to be “innocent” in the first place.
For another example of the Korean pragmatic approach to values: a friend of my boyfriend mentioned that Korean political ideology is marked by syncretism: I remember that American politics was marked by a very clear ideological divide between liberals and conservatives, and each had a well-defined ethos that determines matters of policy. Consistency was important. Whereas for Koreans, there is no such internal consistency when it comes to determining platforms. Each party only adopts policies on the spot as it serves their interests or appeals to the voting public, not based on any ideological basis. Which only serves to further convince me that Koreans don’t generally make ideological integrity and consistency a priority.
The mere fact that I am not putting my usual blog link and name as I reply to this article explains a lot. I was born in Korea but grew up in the US my entire life (moved to the states when I was 3 months old). I got your typical midwest public school sex-ed. “Abstinence preferred – you will get pregnant if you have sex”. It wasn’t until I went to college in Boston and met a few older Korean-American girls that I really learned about sex, taking the pill, and how condoms are kind of annoying to deal with when you are in a long-term, exclusive relationship.
I am so thankful for what the older girls (sun-bae in Korean if I may) taught me. I clearly remember one girl telling me “USE THE PILL.” and when I got into my first long-term relationship and started being sexually active at age 20, I went right to the university health center to get myself a prescription for the pill. I of course paid out of pocket instead of using my parents’ expensive health insurance because I couldn’t imagine what my parents would say if they saw that their daughter was getting birth control pills every month.
About a year ago I visited Korea and bought birth control pills in bulk at a pharmacy. I wasn’t too familiar with naver back then so I resorted to google and ended up on expat forums where foreign women working in Korea shared thread after thread on what brand to ask for, some horror stories of meeting one of their students’ parents at the pharmacy, and how much they would cost. 7 dollars a pack vs. the 30 dollars I paid every month as a student sounded like a good deal and I bought about two years worth of the pill. And of course I found myself lying for absolutely no reason to the pharmacist that “I have an American friend in the US that needs birth control pills”. Of course it wasn’t for me, the Korean girl, they were for my make-believe American friend that for some reason needed birth control pills brought to her from Korea.
I am now with a different partner living in Latin America as an expat. He is Korean… and much more traditionally Korean than I am in terms of marriage, sex, etc. He hates that I take the pill and wishes I would go off of them because of the “negative health effects” or maybe just the thought of me, a Korean girl, being so responsible about sex and possibly knowing more about it than he does? He had been with one other person before me and told me he had never used a condom, the day after pill, nor did his previous girlfriend use the pill. Jaw-dropping for me but after reading this post I realize that it may be a normal occurance for Koreans living in Korea, or Koreans that never really learned about sex and protection.
To be completely honest, as a Korean-American, sexually transmitted diseases and HIV/AIDS are not at the top of my worries when it comes to having sex. Pregnancy, saving face, and the fear of my parents finding out is my (and many other KA girls’) concern. As premarital sex and the number of sexually active Koreans increase in statistics, I think it’s time for me to prioritize both not getting pregnant and sexually transmitted diseases. Thanks for the article!
No offense but why did you use a WG picture? I don’t get the point of that.
Just before it I wrote: “then I invite readers to speculate about just whom exactly might be providing young Koreans with most of their sexual role models instead”. The point is that young Koreans are getting sexual role models from celebrities instead, such as the Wondergirls. For the purpose of making the point, any other young girl-group or boy-band would have sufficed, but the Wondergirls were one of the most popular teenage girl groups when I wrote the post so I chose them.
i love too korea pepole
i love korean.